220baseboard-heater into timer

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  #1  
Old 12-17-05, 06:13 PM
Biggame
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220baseboard-heater into timer

I was looking for help yesterday, for unwire-ing a baseboard heater. and use-ing the 220wire to connect to a intermatic timer(also220).

everything when very well once I figures out how-to use my multi-tester.lol

I must thank you for your explanations in the 30A granged stove details. they helped me understand my issue.

ok 2 questions.
first I have to explain that the wire from the wall wasn't long enough to reach the terminals or the ground screw.
1. so I added a section of same gauge wire from the timer terminals that extends about 3inches out of the timer.(basicaly I just left the wire that was there from it's pervious instalation.where it was cliped from the old wall about 3 inches from the timer's input220 wire.
I used yellow wire caps to attach the 220wire(white/black/barecopper)(from wall) to the 3inch extention comming out of the timer.
I found that the caps fit very tight and made a very secure connection(the caps were the same as was used to wire the 220(from the wall, to the originally hooked up baseboard heater)
the question is are these caps safe or would i be better to replace the wire or maybe move the timer in the basement closer down the actual wire.

the timer is rated for 40A. the caps?do you know this.?

also a small question about the breaker. as to how much load can the system handle (how many amps i can get out on the timer side)
the breaker says 20 and is twice as thick (occuping2slots,but 1throwswitch on upper of 2 slots)
why is this one 20 and my last house had 30Abreakers.
what am i looking at to change this 20Abreaker to a 30A.

Biggame
 
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  #2  
Old 12-17-05, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Biggame
I used yellow wire caps to attach the 220wire
....
the question is are these caps safe or would i be better to replace the wire or maybe move the timer in the basement closer down the actual wire.

the timer is rated for 40A. the caps?do you know this.?
"caps" are called wire nuts.

I don't have a box of wirenuts handy but I use Ideal wirenuts and a yellow Ideal will handle 2-12 AWG. You need to know your wire gauge. If the circuit is 20A, the wire must be at least 12 AWG. Ideal red wire nuts can handle 10 AWG. Blue handles larger yet.
Originally Posted by Biggame
also a small question about the breaker. as to how much load can the system handle (how many amps i can get out on the timer side)
20 Amps. That is based on the breaker size you mentioned.
Originally Posted by Biggame
the breaker says 20 and is twice as thick (occuping2slots,but 1throwswitch on upper of 2 slots)
That is a 2-pole breaker for a 220/240 VAC circuit which is typical for a baseboard heater.
Originally Posted by Biggame
why is this one 20 and my last house had 30Abreakers.
Seems to me a 6' heater runs at 20A. Longer ones use 30A, maybe 8-12'
Originally Posted by Biggame
what am i looking at to change this 20Abreaker to a 30A.

Your wire has to be at least 10 AWG for 30A. There is no reason to change it unless you are replacing a shorter heater with a longer one. Sorry, I didn't read your previous post. Maybe you explained all this there.
 
  #3  
Old 12-17-05, 07:04 PM
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220 baseboard heater into timer

I couldn't find your original thread, so I will be starting from scratch. You have obviously received information from other memebers on your project. What piqued my interest is why would you want to put a baseboard heater on a timer? If no thermostat is in the system, you will be defeating the overall purpose of the heater, and that is to keep the room at a certain temperature. So I am assuming you have a thermostat, most of which are built in to the baseboard heater.

It sounds as if you have 12 gauge wire running to the heater, since you 1) were able to connect them with a yellow b-cap, and 2) you have a 20 amp breaker protecting the circuit. You will probably have to use red b-caps to connect two of the 10 gauge wires. I would try to make the heater circuit with no splices, or as few as possible.

Upgrading to a 30 amp circuit breaker will require a 10 gauge wire to the heater. The 20 amp breaker (although it only has one switch) occupying two slots is a 240 volt breaker, and can be used with 12 gauge wiring.

You didn't say whether or not the wires you connected (which were too short) are encased in a junction box. This is a must, and it must be covered and accessible at all times.

Again, if there is no thermostat, using a timer won't regulate heat properly, only allow it to come on and off at pre-programmed times, which may make the heat unbearable on mild days, and not warm enough on cold ones.

Hope this helped.
 
  #4  
Old 12-18-05, 02:57 PM
Biggame
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thanks the junction box seems to be a crucial part of the merrited wires.


everything went fine with the timmer. now it is hooked up. how many amps. can i use safely, being that the breaker say20.


now 1 last question. timer is hooked up to 220.

how can I take the thermastat out of the loop.
sice everytime the room temp raises above 25deg.the thermastat kicks and does what a thermastat is suppossed to do, it seems to cut power to the timer. which screws up my ability to get an accurate timer program.

oh, by the way the heater is not what is on the other side of the timer. heater is removed.

I am converting a small extra office I have in my home, into a sauna, and hottub room.

I need the timer for the hottub and the heat lamps. not to mention the dehumidifier. and pumps. and a huge fan.

i imagine cutting the wires into the thermastat. would make it stop.
i am more concerned about safety since i am working around water. and 220

what i want in the end is that the timmer can run uninterupted by thermastat.
and what is max load amps. i can put on that 20a breaker?(considering surge from equipment).most of the equipment is around 6a; does that mean i could put 3 x 6a = 18a


thanks for taking the time to help me out.

Biggame

oh also when talking about the 10gauge wire and 12gauge. are they color coaded. like for intance the new wire to timmer is a WHITE 3wire, wire.
my old house had 30a or 40a switch, but the wire going to to that heater was RED 3wire, wire.

does it help me figure out what gauge my new WHITE 220 wire is. if the wire is RED can the automaticaly assume it is a certain gauge?

thank-you, thank-you, thank-you.
 

Last edited by Biggame; 12-20-05 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 12-18-05, 07:45 PM
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Somehow I doubt that 20 amps is enough for your project. I recommend starting over, properly planning the project and running the proper number of circuits and the proper size circuits. It sounds like you need at least three circuits.

Also understand that hot tubs and spas have very rigid electrical code requirements. I don;t believe that your setup will meet them.
 
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Old 12-18-05, 07:57 PM
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220 baseboard-heater into timer

Wow, I guess I did miss your first threads. What you are doing has nothing to do with a baseboard heater. First take the thermostat out of the loop. It is hardwired in the wall (probably) in a switch box. Turn off the power, take the thermostat out of the wall and disconnect the wires attached to it. Reconnect the wires using the color code. White to white, black to black, red to red, bare to bare. B-cap the wires and put them back in the box and put a blank cover on the box. Now you should have full interrupted line voltage to the timer.

You will have to, somewhere in your sauna room place a disconnect with a double pole 20 amp Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, to take care of the water thingy.

Double check the wattage/amp draw of all the things you will have running or cycling at any given time. If it equals more than 17 amps, you will not be able to use the 20 amp circuit, nor the 12 gauge wiring. You will have to rewire and install a 30 amp breaker. Don't install the 30 amp breaker on the 12 gauge wire. Doing so will cause the 12 gauge wire to become your fuse, and will not trip the breaker until it melts and causes a fire.

Now days when you purchase non metallic B wire, the casing is color coded: 14 gauge is white, 12 gauge is yellow, 10 gauge is orange, etc. For your older installation, you will need to look on the casing itself to determine the wire size, which is most probably 12 gauge. Don't assume the size just because the casing is a certain color. It is stamped on the casing.

Now, according to your description, when the timer goes on or off, everything goes on or off; sauna, pump, fan, dehumidifier. Is that what you want?

Why not buy lesser expensive timers, and place one at each application, so they can be timed individually at will? I just think all the appliances you want to run will be over amperage for the circuit and timer you are using.

Good luck, and be extremely safe.
 
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Old 12-18-05, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by chandler
Now days when you purchase non metallic B wire, the casing is color coded: 14 gauge is white, 12 gauge is yellow, 10 gauge is orange, etc.
These colors are not standard, and may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. There is no standard. Don't ever rely on cable color.
 
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Old 12-19-05, 10:55 AM
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This project requires low-voltage control-circuits--- the timers/thermosats are wired to a 24 volt control power-supply ( a transformer), and they switch to On/Off modes 2-pole contactors with current-rated contacts.

A 220 volt, 30 amp load would require a 2-pole contactor with contacts rated a 30 amps.

You could have a "master" timer that controls any number of seperate contactors, each contactor switching a specfic load,or one timer-per contactor.

Certain contactors could be switched from "Thermosat" to "Timer" control by a "manual" selector-switch.

I suggest you run a seperate cable from each load to be controlled to a common location where you can inter-connect to the contactors and the control wires from the control devices.

You should find whatever you need in the Honeywell "On-line" Catalog---- see "Useful Web-sites" at the "Top" of this Forum
 
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Old 12-20-05, 02:35 PM
Biggame
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Originally Posted by chandler
You will have to, somewhere in your sauna room place a disconnect with a double pole 20 amp Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, to take care of the water thingy.

Double check the wattage/amp draw of all the things you will have running or cycling at any given time. If it equals more than 17 amps, you will not be able to use the 20 amp circuit, nor the 12 gauge wiring. You will have to rewire and install a 30 amp breaker. Don't install the 30 amp breaker on the 12 gauge wire. Doing so will cause the 12 gauge wire to become your fuse, and will not trip the breaker until it melts and causes a fire..
thank you chandler this I found very helpful.


ok I am just wondering about the themostat I have in that room, it is a regular honeywell wall theremastat non-digital. how many amps can be drawn through the 220 wire without having any problems with the thermostat becoming the fuse. let's say if i wanted to leave the thermostat, and just buy a timer that is digital. so when the thermostat turns the power off to the timer, the timer doesn't lose track of time.

lets say I have the 220 wire connected to my 40amp timer, drawing about 13.6 amps. (fuse says20amp) now if I change my timer to be digital, I might want to leave the thermostat so the room cannot go above a certain temperature. is this possible ??

the thermaostat is stamped
(HONEYWELL CANADA, VAC 120/240/277, Res amp .22, T498A1737)

does this thermostat have to be removed (or bypassed) inorder to draw approx. 13.6 amps to the timer. or can I just leave it fully open. turned to the max, (so 30 deg.)

thanks
Biggame
 
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Old 12-20-05, 02:42 PM
Biggame
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Originally Posted by racraft
Also understand that hot tubs and spas have very rigid electrical code requirements. I don;t believe that your setup will meet them.
I'm still in the planning stages.

Where can I find and review electrical code requirements?

Originally Posted by racraft
Somehow I doubt that 20 amps is enough for your project. I recommend starting over, properly planning the project and running the proper number of circuits and the proper size circuits. It sounds like you need at least three circuits.
Where is a good place to find this kind of information?

What course could I take at my university I can take to learn this kind of stuff?


thanks Racraft
 

Last edited by Biggame; 12-20-05 at 09:26 PM.
  #11  
Old 12-21-05, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Biggame
Where can I find and review electrical code requirements?
Section 680 of the National Electric Code has the specifics for pools and spas, although many other sections apply too. The NEC is a bit pricey and hard to understand, but your local library probably has it. The local electrical inspector's office can be a good resource too; many localities have ammendments to the NEC that you must also abide by.

What course could I take at my university I can take to learn this kind of stuff?
I think you might have better luck at a community college or vocational school; universities tend to have few if any "practical skills" courses. You could call and ask about the starting courses for electrician apprentice training. Something like Intro to Residential Wiring. Or, find out what textbooks those courses use and read them on your own.
 
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