manual transfer switch

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Old 01-13-06, 12:45 PM
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manual transfer switch

I have had several estimates for an installation of a manual main load center transfer panel. Pull out a 150 amp main load center panel and install a Reliance TTV1506C manual main load center Transfer Panel. The problem is a 220 .75 amp load circut, that feeds the generator Utility Control circuit. This circuit needs to come from utility power to sence power or power failure. All of the electricins that looked at it said that they can put it on the load side lugs and install 2 2amp inline fuses.
Question what is the correct way of suppling a 220v .75 amp load circut, that feeds the generator Utility Controller circuit.
 
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Old 01-13-06, 02:36 PM
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www.reliancecontrols.com but i couldn't find the tv1506c.
the ttv series looks like a manual switch with a double pole generator feed breaker, so the utility sensor would only turn on the generator and you have to make the switch over from utility. what generator are you using ? it should note it's connection requirements. i've sold a few generacs over the years, but they are all packaged systems and the newer units are pre wired. good luck, i'm glad to see you have the sense to use a transfer switch. you can't imagine what some folks think they can get away with.
 
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Old 01-13-06, 03:20 PM
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the tv1506c is special order since i have a 150 amp main. and the Briggs & Stratton gen is a 12kw under nat gas it should provide 55 starting amps and 45 runing I hope i never have to use it. but living in hurricane ally one never knows.
How to do it correctly. can the load side lugs in the can be changed to a double lug? Can you use Tap connectors in a meter can or in a main panel.
Can you use bugs? and then there is the placement of the protection and the type of protection
 

Last edited by mastergasfitter; 01-13-06 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 01-13-06, 04:15 PM
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i'm sorry , but i don't understand some of the terminology such as can, and bugs.
you're not going to touch the meter under any circumstance. beside that, the utility sensor is only going to start the generator , as your switch appears to be manual. it could get feed from a breaker on the main panel and i think you need 120 vac for the battery charger as well. if i am not clear on your equipment , please let me know. i think part of the problem is the mix of the briggs gen set and the outsourced transfer switch. again, i'm not a proffesional electrician but i'm more than willing to be a backboard.
oh yeah, another thing i could do is fax you a schematic of the generac format for general rererence. P.M. me and i'll do that tommorow. all my books are at work..
 
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Old 01-13-06, 05:46 PM
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Master.... If you can you really need to talk to tech support at briggs and straton. You say they gave you the ok in another post to use a manual transfer switch. Then they dang sure should be able to tell you how to wire up the generator to support both generator and the T-S.
I dont think anybody here is comfortable telling you to modify factory installation instructions that call for an automatic transfer switch to be used with the generator. It makes no mention of it being field convertible in the manner in which you speak.
If you can get approval from the briggs and stratton then they should be able to supply you with those instruction on how to do what you wish.
With respect I have to say an automatic transfer is only about 400.00 bucks. And I am having trouble understanding your decision to try to get around the auto transfer that is called for in the manual.
An auto transfer will be most reliable. After all how much will it ever actually be transfering to emergency generator? It should last you a lifetime. I am no expert on autmatic transfer devices, but there may be a way to engage them even if they fail....might want to ask briggs.

Just my thoughts.


Roger
 
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Old 01-13-06, 07:05 PM
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roger makes some excellent points that i felt a little uncomfortable about bringing up. and yes, at least for Generac, manual transfer is provided for should the coils fail and not transfer. i've had a couple customers request their units be manual transfer / auto start. the problem was they felt the 20 second delay/ 20 second warm-up/ 20 second transfer was too fast to allow for short outages. that's fine, i just had them sign off on a work order to disconnect the coils due to failure and replacement not requested. very few and not recomended as most end users do not need to deal with this during an outage. thanks for your input roger
 
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Old 01-14-06, 08:01 AM
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Utility power charges the battery and allows for weekly exercise turns on the generator during a power failure gives with a 20 sec. warm up and turns off the generator when powered is restored with a 1 minute cool down. I did talk to the factory and they said I can connect to any transfer switch as long as I do not alter the generator. now they said that it is up to me to figure out how to get the 220volt .75 amp load circuit, that feeds the generator Utility Control circuit. I have very few power failures mostly during hurricanes and then I don't want it even start. Turning it off is on my hurricane
check list
Now I can put a #14AWG in the same lugs as the 1/0 but that's not legal.
any suggestions on how to get the 220volt .75 amp load circuit, that feeds the generator Utility Control circuit. send a private e-mail to me if you dont want to post it her. I am a master gas fitter and I am using a licensed electrician to do the work the 4 that had give me estimates use words like "I think i can make it work" "well its not code but we can do it this way"
thats not what i want to hear. one sparky said he can slip 2 1/0 under the load side it the meter can. I dont think so. please any suggestions
 
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Old 01-14-06, 08:32 AM
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the sytems i use require utility voltage for two reasons: battery charger and line voltage availabilty (outage) if you have the battery taken care of don't bother with the utility. it only sets the logic board into action to start, warm,transfer, restore, cool down, and shut off the generator. btw, you are not going to remove your main panel, why can't you get the 220 from there ?
 
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Old 01-14-06, 08:42 AM
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I am pulling out the main panel. as noted in my first post "Pull out a 150 amp main load center panel and install a Reliance TTV1506C manual main load center Transfer Panel. The problem is a 220 .75 amp load circut, that feeds the generator Utility Control circuit. " Also noted the ttv 150 is to match my original panel
 
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Old 01-14-06, 09:29 AM
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let me get this straight.. the instructions for the TTV say that it REPLACES your main load center? i'll be back and forth so bear with me
 
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Old 01-14-06, 09:39 AM
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mastergasfitter wants to do something that in my opinion is very foolish and dangerous. The directions for his generator call for an automatic transfer switch panel. If he follows the directions then all will work as it is designed. By not following the directions he will likely void the generator warranty and get very little help from the manufacturer. It will also be questionable as to whether it will pass inspection.

However, he doesn't want this setup. I believe this is because he will have to decide which of his circuits to place on the generator panel and which to leave in the main panel. I think he wants to have the freedom to run any of his circuits, not just those that would be in the transfer switch panel.

My advice, of course, is to follow the directions and do this properly. I would immediately dismiss any electrician who says that he will make it work but not be up to code.
 
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Old 01-14-06, 09:49 AM
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ok, i went back to reliance and i think i see what you have. the problem is your generator is designed to work with an automatic tansfer switch. you don't have to operate it in auto mode but the auto transfer switch supplies the signals you are trying to get. by removing the main you took out the "middleman" that told the system that the power was off. ok, since you don't want auto run, and you don't have an auto switch, you have to live without auto exercise functions. that's all the 220 x .75 is for anyway. this is the problem with mixed components. you did gain some descretion as to what is running but you ( or someone else ) have the potential to overload the generator. i don't think that double pole generator input will protect against a surge. be very cautious when using the generator. turn off everything before you make the switch and bring online the ones you need one at a time. good luck
 
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Old 01-14-06, 11:40 AM
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if the generator has to be connected as you say only to automatic then why do they make a manual transfer switch for this unit.071002
071003 194942GS 2 (10/27/04) 60 Amp NEMA I/NEMA 3R
Manual Transfer Switch

http://www.homegeneratorsystems.com/...m-domestic.pdf
Also in the warranty is says may viod warranty. May means if you altered there generator I am not altering. I talked to the manufature i was told that i can in deed use any manual transfer switch of my choosing.My questions are not about the generator its about load side line taps. and what is the correct way which to perform a tap connection.
 
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Old 01-14-06, 12:11 PM
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because you are NOT using THEIR manual transfer switch, which, does not replace your load center. that generator is likely designed to obtain that 220 x .75 from THIER transfer switch. manual or automatic. THEIR switches either feed a sub-panel or include in it's construction a sub-panel. if the generator was intended to be wired your way, any transfer switch designed to work with it would have to be capable of full amperage load. big difference between a switch that can run 100 amps and 200 amps. i'm not yelling, i'm triying to give you a taste of what your going to hear the first time something goes wrong with the generator. i'm not sure if you can do this but, what about leaving your old load center, installing the switch next to it. do what you wanted to do with the switch but leave one double pole in the old box and use it to feed the 220 x .75 ? need a code expert here. now you can have the auto exercise function, auto start, auto off . pretty sure you have to leave the unit on auto for it to exercise, but since your switch is manual nothing will happen inside. just a warning. if i went to that installation for a warranty request and the unit was not set up to exercise..... you'd be s.o.l. keep bouncing this around and we'll figure it out.
 
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Old 01-14-06, 12:41 PM
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yes there auto swithes do have that connection on them and there manual switch does not but there manual switch is a sub panel. having 2 mains is what i am trying to achieve IE.. tap connector Now B&G has a 200 amp whole house panel that will basically do the same thing i am doing and it is mechanically held. Now that is to many things to break in the future. now lets start over Lets say i am going to install 2 mains what is the correct way to preform a tap connection? the generator will give me 55 starting amps and 45 running in the heat of the summer using an amp probe i pulled 32amps
my electric bill i about $90 a month i have a 1200 square home fully insulated floresant bulbs no incondecent. All gas appliances.
the generator has over load protection and its feeding a 60 breaker
 
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Old 01-14-06, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mastergasfitter
if the generator has to be connected as you say only to automatic then why do they make a manual transfer switch for this unit.071002
071003 194942GS 2 (10/27/04) 60 Amp NEMA I/NEMA 3R
Manual Transfer Switch

http://www.homegeneratorsystems.com/...m-domestic.pdf
Also in the warranty is says may viod warranty. May means if you altered there generator I am not altering. I talked to the manufature i was told that i can in deed use any manual transfer switch of my choosing.My questions are not about the generator its about load side line taps. and what is the correct way which to perform a tap connection.
Page 7, #4 "Connect generator supply leads from the generators control panel to transfer switch two pole breaker marked Generator Supply".

There are no diagrams or instructions for a supply voltage to the generator *because this is a manual transfer panel*. If you look at the diagrams for the Automatic panel, it has the power connections you need to _properly_ connect your automatic generator.

Until you can explain why you simply will not purchase the correct panel for what you are trying to do, I think you will find that most here aren't going to be able to help you anymore than they already have.

Several answers have been given which would accomplish what you are looking to do.
1. Purchase the correctly wired, automatic transfer panel.
2 Supply another breaker in the main panel to feed the generators input circuitry.
3. Purchase a 50 amp genconnect with automatic transfer (the highest your 12k generator is rated for).
 
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