GFCI in metal box?


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Old 01-23-06, 03:06 PM
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GFCI in metal box?

I'm putting in a GFCI outlet in the kitchen, and I was going to install a metal box, but I noticed the GFCI outlet is so fat that the terminals on the sides seem to be nearly touching the sides of the box. I thought I would just use a plastic box, but I sort of need the type of box with the tongues on the outside so I can attach it to the wall. I haven't seen this type of plastic box at Lowe's where I've bought everything else. Is there another way, or is the metal box OK? I have seen where people wrap electrical tape around the wired GFCI outlet--is this desirable? Also, if I could use plastic, I could avoid the grounding pigtail, but I don't see how I can attach a plastic box--there's no access from behind and the stud is a few inches over.

2nd question (might be a stupid one): I was going to extend the circuit from this outlet to feed a fluorescent fixture over the sink. Is it ok/good to wire it to the load side of the GFCI and therefore give GFCI protection to the light fixture (fixture has it's own switch on it)?
 
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Old 01-23-06, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Timinindy
Iis the metal box OK?
A metal box is okay. The screw terminals are recessed into the body of the plastic GFCI receptacle enough to prevent contact with the metal box. I don't like to wrap my receptacles with tape, but there's no rule that prohibits it.

2nd question (might be a stupid one): I was going to extend the circuit from this outlet to feed a fluorescent fixture over the sink. Is it ok/good to wire it to the load side of the GFCI and therefore give GFCI protection to the light fixture (fixture has it's own switch on it)?
You cannot extend a kitchen countertop circuit to lighting; you'll have to find another circuit to power your light fixture. GFCI protection on fluorescent lighting is undesirable; many fluorescent fixtures cause false trips.
 
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Old 01-23-06, 03:26 PM
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If you are referring to an old work box, and it sounds like you are, they make plastic ones.
 
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Old 01-23-06, 03:29 PM
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So even though the head of that screw is only 1/8" from the grounded metal box, there's no risk of an 'arc' or whatever?
 
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Old 01-24-06, 07:23 PM
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use black electrical tape and put 3-4 wraps around the gfi when you are done wiring to cover all exposed current carrying parts, the wire, the screw head and it will be fine. this is a common practice and it also serves as a saftey for the next guy pulling this gfi out of the box for what ever reason. ibpooks, just curious, why dont you like wrapping rec with tape.
 
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Old 01-24-06, 09:59 PM
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There is no good reason I can think of to wrap a receptacle with tape. They are designed to be installed into a metal box without tape and in fact are UL approved to be installed that way. The clearances between the screws and a metal box are MORE than adequate to prevent arcing.

Safety for the next guy not unless he's working it hot. Common practice? Not if you're a pro. Waste of material

2 places tape doesn't belong - around receptacles and wirenuts. Properly used neither need it.

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Old 01-24-06, 10:22 PM
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"Safety for the next guy not unless he's working it hot. Common practice? Not if you're a pro. Waste of material"

I agree the tape is not required but as a service electrician that works things hot 90% of the time, the 39 cent roll of black tape won't hurt. With tight spaces in those metal boxes with a GFI I use tape.

When troubleshooting circuits they need to be hot to properly diagnose the problem.

The tape is not to prevent arcing but is a safety for when the next guy comes in and loosens the outlet screws holding it into the box to prevent the hot screws make contact with the box or fingers. I bet the guys that don't use tape are the same ones that leave 1" of slack in the wires so you can't even get the outlet out the box. Electrical work is not the place to be cheap
 
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Old 01-25-06, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rich3236
I agree the tape is not required but as a service electrician that works things hot 90% of the time, the 39 cent roll of black tape won't hurt. With tight spaces in those metal boxes with a GFI I use tape.

When troubleshooting circuits they need to be hot to properly diagnose the problem.

The tape is not to prevent arcing but is a safety for when the next guy comes in and loosens the outlet screws holding it into the box to prevent the hot screws make contact with the box or fingers. I bet the guys that don't use tape are the same ones that leave 1" of slack in the wires so you can't even get the outlet out the box. Electrical work is not the place to be cheap

Posts like this scare me. If you have to work stuff hot 90% of the time to find problems you're probably in the wrong business. If you HAVE to work in a box thats hot, you kill the power, remove ALL the receptacles and switches then turn the power back on. Not enough wire - that's what wire nuts and pigtails are for.

I've been in many facets of the electrical business, including service, over the last 35 years or so. I have never taped receptacles or GFCIs but have watched the "next guy" cuss somebody who did many times. Beyond using an amp clamp of some sort there's not much reason to have things hot when working them - at least I don't have to. I have pried at least two guys who did loose from their work though, and one didn't make it.

This "non taper" works in at least one jurisdiction that requires 6" of free wire outside the box to pass inspection and out of habit I do that everywhere. Consequently I use the biggest boxes I can when doing new work and replace boxes that are obviously too small, like when a pry bar is required to get a GFCI back into the box.

And, tape worth using is a bit over $2.00 a roll - at least the kind I buy is.

Rich, I've fired several guys with your attitude. I don't want to be responsible for them. Pros die just as permanent as DIYers when they get their fingers in the wrong place and a circuit is hot. They make lockout/tagout stuff for a reason.

UNK
 
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Old 01-25-06, 08:26 AM
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hey bill, I to am a pro. but with a electricity pro or not it takes 1 slip up and your hurt or dead. this is not plumbing where the worst you can have is a leak. there is nothing wrong with a courtesy wrap of tape around an outlet. I did not mention wrapping wire nuts, properly installed a wire nut never needs tape b/c there is no live exposed parts. if you thinks its a waste of money dont use scotch super 88 and carry a reg roll of tape, or dont do it, its your opinion. i must laugh when i here the i am a pro thing b/c that sometimes means your so used to elec and those are the ones that get careless. by the way i rountinely sit on a 750 volt dc 3rd rail and have lunch.
 
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Old 01-25-06, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tach
ibpooks, just curious, why dont you like wrapping rec with tape.
Because old electrical tape leaves a disgusting sticky mess when you peel it off and I hate getting that crap on my fingers and tools.
 
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Old 01-25-06, 07:10 PM
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you dont like the sticky stuff on your fingers or hands? are you in construction.
 
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Old 01-25-06, 10:12 PM
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No tape. Tape is not a courtesy. It's a mess. Use a 4" box with a plaster ring. Then there is plenty of room for the wiring and receptacle - no crowding, no cramming. Adequate room to daisy chain to the other outlets.
 
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Old 01-26-06, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tach
you dont like the sticky stuff on your fingers or hands? are you in construction.
I think that was supposed to be an insult. Nonetheless, I don't think tape provides any real protection, and it leaves a mess when it comes off. That's why I don't tape.
 
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Old 01-26-06, 08:42 AM
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i love all these people jumping on board with tape being a mess. how often is an outlet messed with once the finish plate is on and it was wired by someon who knows what they are doing. let me guess, wire ease is a mess too, so lets pull feeders dry, right?
 
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Old 01-26-06, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tach
how often is an outlet messed with once the finish plate is on and it was wired by someone who knows what they are doing.
Someone who knew what he was doing wouldn't put tape on it.
Tape serves no purpose.

Yes, receptacles have to be replaced.
Especially GFCI receptacles have a pretty short lifetime for some reason.

If no one is ever getting in there again, then how is tape a courtesy to anyone?





let me guess, wire ease is a mess too, so lets pull feeders dry, right?
You are being silly. There is no comparison.
 
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Old 01-26-06, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Timinindy
So even though the head of that screw is only 1/8" from the grounded metal box, there's no risk of an 'arc' or whatever?
Not unless you get over 3000V.

Don't forget that the metal strap of the receptacle itself is that close anyway.
 
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Old 01-26-06, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Timinindy
I was going to extend the circuit from this outlet to feed a fluorescent fixture over the sink. Is it ok/good to wire it to the load side of the GFCI and therefore give GFCI protection to the light fixture (fixture has its own switch on it)?
Safety issue arises if GFCI trips and you are left in the dark or people can't test GFCI because it makes the lights go out.

So GFCI/AFCI protection is great for lighting too, but it can't be same circuit in kitchen/bathroom/laundry, and generally shouldn't be anywhere.

If the light fixture can be touched while touching the sink with the other hand, I say protect it somehow.
If nothing else, put the outlet on a separate circuit up 7' axove the floor to plug in a clock and also run the light off that. It can't count toward your kitchen appliance circuits, though.
 
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Old 01-26-06, 10:09 PM
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edit................
 

Last edited by rich3236; 01-26-06 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 01-27-06, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bolide
Safety issue arises if GFCI trips and you are left in the dark or people can't test GFCI because it makes the lights go out.

So GFCI/AFCI protection is great for lighting too, but it can't be same circuit in kitchen/bathroom/laundry, and generally shouldn't be anywhere.

If the light fixture can be touched while touching the sink with the other hand, I say protect it somehow.
If nothing else, put the outlet on a separate circuit up 7' axove the floor to plug in a clock and also run the light off that. It can't count toward your kitchen appliance circuits, though.
So what about the issue someone mentioned of false trips with a fluorescent fixture?
 
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Old 01-27-06, 05:47 PM
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False tripping is mostly a problem with older GFCIs and cheaper fluorescent fixtures. If you have a GFCI manufactured in the last three years, and a fixture that costs more than $10, you're probably fine putting fluorescent lighting on GFCI. However, it's rarely necessary.

And everybody please refrain from personal comments. Some people like tape, some people don't. Let's just leave it at that.
 
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Old 01-28-06, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by itsunclebill
Pros die just as permanent as DIYers when they get their fingers in the wrong place and a circuit is hot. They make lockout/tagout stuff for a reason.
UNK
When I was in Electrical Construction school in the military they told us there were old lineman and there were careless lineman, but there were no old careless lineman.
 
 

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