Outlet / Fireplace question

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  #1  
Old 01-29-06, 04:54 PM
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Outlet / Fireplace question

hey everyone, this is my first post here but long time looker. never posted before because I've almost always found my answers in the archives. But I have been finishing my basement and Im rewiring, I am in the process of wiring for my gas fireplace and I cant seem to figure it out. I will spell out the situation the best I can. I have a box with a outlet wired to it, this is were im going to be getting my power for the fireplace, then I have a wire going to the switch for the on / off of the fireplace, all in the same box ( wires in total). My question is how do I wire the box and not make the outlet switched. I know I could just run a new wire straight to the switch but its a really long run and I made a mistake, can I fix it without pulling new wire.
 
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  #2  
Old 01-29-06, 05:04 PM
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Can you explain exactly what wires you have in what boxes. I am a bit confused as to your description.
Is the receptacle now near the FP and the switch far away?
Is it a single cable from the recept to the switch?
 
  #3  
Old 01-29-06, 05:10 PM
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I don't understand your post/question either.

If you want the switch to control the fireplace, then why don't you want the receptacle to be switched?
 
  #4  
Old 01-29-06, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by illenderle
I have a box with a outlet wired to it.
This is where I'm going to get power for the fireplace.
Then I have a wire going to the switch for the on / off of the fireplace, all in the same box (6 wires in total).
My question is how do I wire the box and not make the outlet switched.
No problem if you have a big box.

Black and white come into box from a source.
Black and white leave the box going to the fireplace.

1. Pigtail incoming white with one pigtail (6" length of white) and the outgoing white to the fp using one wire nut.

2. White pigtail goes to silver on the receptacle.

3. Pigtail incoming black with two 6" lengths of black using one wire nut.

4. One black pigtail goes to brass on the receptacle.

5. One black pigtail goes to the switch.

6. Outgoing black to fp connects to switch's other screw.

7. Tie all grounds together with a wire nut and pigtail to devices as required.
 
  #5  
Old 01-29-06, 06:00 PM
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Boldie-- I think you are right but its still a little confusing to me.. For the others I have attached a picture of my box if that will help clear my situation ip.

Box Picture


Thanks everyone for your help.
 
  #6  
Old 01-29-06, 06:10 PM
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bolide's directions are correct, but assume that the switch is in the same box as the receptacle, which is apparently is not.

Connect the power black to one of the brass screws on the receptacle.

Connect the switch white to the other brass screw on the receptacle. Color this white wire with a red, blue or black marker.

Connect the switch black to the fireplace black with a wire nut.

Connect the white power wire to one of the silver receptacle screws.

Connect the white fireplace wire to the other silver receptacle screw.

Connect the grounds together and pigtail to the receptacle.

At the switch color the white wire red, blue or black and connect white, black and ground wires to the switch.

bolide suggested using wire nuts and pigtails, which you can do, but aren't necessary. If you used them, you would do so on the wires that connect to the brass receptacle screws and on the wires that connect to the silver receptacle screws. I would not use them as they just add to the number of wires in the box.
 
  #7  
Old 01-29-06, 06:20 PM
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Boldie & racraft- Thanks so much for help, it is greatly appreciated, and very fast!! you are great! I will hook up and let you know how it works!! Thanks again.
 
  #8  
Old 01-29-06, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by racraft
bolide's directions are correct, but assume that the switch is in the same box as the receptacle, which is apparently is not.
Yeah, I didn't catch that the switch was in yet another box.


> Connect the white fireplace wire to the other silver receptacle screw.
> bolide suggested using wire nuts and pigtails, which you can do,
> but aren't necessary. If you used them, you would do so on the wires
> that connect to the brass receptacle screws and on the wires that
> connect to the silver receptacle screws.
> I would not use them as they just add to the number of wires in the box.

I agree with the reason not to use them.

But using them is imperative on a multiwire branch circuits to avoid breaking continuity of the ungrounded conductor when changing out a receptacle, and on circuits like this, it clearly communicates the intentions of the wiring and also makes fewer wires to connect when changing the receptacle.

So I like bigger boxes when possible and find it easier to deal with receptacles that have fewer wires to stuff into the box. With pigtails I can tuck the other wires into the box neatly before the receptacle is pushed in.
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
 
  #9  
Old 01-29-06, 06:43 PM
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I note that setup shown in the photo appears to be in danger of violating NEC Article 314.16(B) for too many wires in one little box.
How many cubic inches is that box?

Use a two gang box and a half blank cover to assure compliance.
Plus that would allow room for a chubby device like a GFCI.
 
  #10  
Old 01-29-06, 07:57 PM
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Bolide-

I think it does pass code the box is 3x3x4 = 36 Cubic Inches. I have 9 Wires at 2.25 cubic inches per conductor which = 20.25 and 1 outlet which = 4.25 cubic inches, for a total of 24.50 cubic inches 11 cubic inches under the maximum. Am I doing this right or are my calculations wrong.
 
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Old 01-29-06, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by illenderle
the box is 3x3x4 = 36 Cubic Inches.
It looks more like 3x2x3" = 18 in^3.

> 9 wires at 2.25 cubic inches per conductor which = 20.25 and
> 1 outlet which = 4.25 cubic inches,
4.5

> for a total of 24.75 cubic inches
Okay.

That picture sure makes the box look small to me.

Do you know how much sheathing is permitted inside the box for each cable?
 
  #12  
Old 01-29-06, 10:38 PM
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fisherman's measuring tape

Do you know that boxes are measure on the inside?
That box in your picture is approximately 3" high, 2" wide, and maybe an average of 3.5" deep.
The bottom looks almost square. I know that it slopes up where the knockouts are.

I'm seeing a one-gang NM blue Carlon new-work box.
Sure, they are big. What's the model number?

It just looks small. It bothers me that I can't make your dimensions fit the box I see.
I'm thinking it is at most 20 or 22 in^3.
 
  #13  
Old 01-30-06, 12:07 AM
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I cant add to the thread however the box is either a carlon B118A--18 cu in. a carlon B120A-upc---20 cu in. or a carlon B122A-upc---22 cu in.

6 #12 conductors----at 2.25 cu.in ea...----13.50 cu.in
1 allowance for #12 grd's------------------ 2.25 cu.in
1 allowance for single yoke device--------- 2.25 cu.in

Total----20.25 cu.in.

Box shown on posters link needs to be a B122a carlon zip. for compliance


Go here for verification...image gallery
 

Last edited by Roger; 01-30-06 at 01:09 AM.
  #14  
Old 01-30-06, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger
the box is either a Carlon B118A--18 cu in. a Carlon B120A-upc---20 cu in. or a Carlon B122A-upc---22 cu in.
Okay.

> 6 #12 conductors----at 2.25 cu.in ea...----13.50 cu.in
> 1 allowance for #12 grd's------------------ 2.25 cu.in
> 1 allowance for single yoke device--------- 2.25 cu.in

In this case isn't the single-yoke device a double allowance {NEC 314.16(B)(4)}: 4.5?

> Total----20.25 cu.in.
Okay.
 
  #15  
Old 01-30-06, 04:52 AM
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double allowance

yes that single yoke is counted as 2 of the largest conductors. 20.25ci needed
 
  #16  
Old 01-30-06, 06:38 AM
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> 6 #12 conductors----at 2.25 cu.in ea...----13.50 cu.in
> 1 allowance for #12 grd's------------------ 2.25 cu.in
> 1 allowance for single yoke device--------- 2.25 cu.in

In this case isn't the single-yoke device a double allowance {NEC 314.16(B)(4)}: 4.5?

> Total----20.25 cu.in.
Yes, absolutely it's a double allowance....must be the result of posting when I should have been sleeping....

At least I got the total right...
 
  #17  
Old 01-30-06, 06:41 AM
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Thanks again guys for your replies, yes you are correct, I didnt give you exact measument. I will measure tonight when i get home. I do know it was around 2.5 x 2.5 x 3.5 I also am getting my rough in inspection tomorrow so Im sure he will let me know if he doesnt like it. That will not be the only one if that is the case!!!.
 
  #18  
Old 01-30-06, 06:44 AM
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If you look in the back of the box the cu. in. will be stamped in the plastic.
 
  #19  
Old 01-30-06, 08:28 PM
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Hey everyone! I looked at my box when I got home and sure enough it was 18 Cubic inches.. I ended up swapping out three of those boxes and 1 2 gang switch box. Thanks guys.. I have an inspection in the morning and I really hope it passes!!
 
  #20  
Old 01-30-06, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by illenderle
I have an inspection in the morning and I really hope it passes!!
I always use the same inspector so I know what he expects and he knows my work. Nonetheless, I always ask him to tell me if he is cutting me a break on anything or if there is anything he would like to see done differently. I don't want any slack for anything that I could control.
But sometimes in old houses the clearances aren't what they should be or the dedicated space isn't dedicated.

Example: I put in a new service drop, meter, and disconnect outside a trailer.
I told this inspector that I hadn't done any work inside, but had verified that the panel had a floating neutral and all grounds separated.
Inside, the panel was in a bedroom closet. He went in and checked it too then approved the service... The inside panel was already existing.



Good luck!!
 
  #21  
Old 01-31-06, 09:16 AM
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Good news... I passed my rough in inspection this morning. The guy didnt really look at much. He looked at my general work and signed my permit and left. Thanks again guys.
 
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