Finalizing plan, a few last questions

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Old 02-20-06, 07:23 PM
darinstarr
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Finalizing plan, a few last questions

Greetings again-

I am finishing the planning stage of my 'entire house' rewiring project. A few final questions have come up:

1. Wiring Simplified states that I will, in general, be following code if I provide a dedicated circuit for, among other things, an electric clothes washer. Is this required, or just recommended? My washing machine is located in a utility room with 2 other duplex receptacles (which I do not use), and I would prefer to feed them using the same branch circuit rather than running two (there are no other nearby circuits that would be convenient to feed from). Also, is GFCI required for a laundry room?

2. Again in Wiring Simplified, the wording for required kitchen receptacles is confusing. It states that two small appliance circuits are required for the kitchen, dining area, etc. The wording in the book is very confusing. Currently, I have 1 kitchen counter receptacle (of which I will be adding 2 more based on spacing requirements) and 4 receptacles in the attached dining area. Can I run these off 1 circuit, or should I run them off 2 circuits? If 2, should both be GFCI protected? 20A required, or 15A ok? For what it's worth, the fridge has a dedicated circuit already.

3. Bedrooms must be AFCI protected. Does this require a 12AWG/20A configuration? None of my local stores carry specialty breakers for my panel (Cutler Hammer BR series) so I have no idea if a 15A AFCI breaker even exists. I assume I can serve 2 bedroom with 1 circuit with no issues?

That was a little more involved that I was thinking when I started this post. I appreciate any feedback, and thanks for your time!
 
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Old 02-20-06, 07:41 PM
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1. You must have a 20-amp circuit dedicated to the receptacles in the laundry area. This circuit may not have anything outside the laundry area on it, and it may not have anything except receptacles. However, it need not be dedicated to the washing machine (but usually is). You could, for example, also power a radio or a clock, or even the clothes iron (although I would not recommend trying to iron while the washing machine is running). GFCI is neither required, nor is typically provided on this circuit (unless you have a sink in the room).

2. You need (at least) two 20-amp circuits. These circuits supply power for countertop receptacles and dining room receptacles, and nothing else (although you are allowed to put the refrigerator on it if you wish--but you don't have to). You can divide up the countertop and dining room receptacles in any manner you want. You could put all the countertop receptacles on one circuit, and all the dining room receptacles on the other, but this is a bad idea. Most of the power will be consumed in the kitchen, so it is smart to put some of your countertop receptacles on one of the circuits, and some on the other. You can then put the dining room receptacles on either one. All kitchen countertop receptacles must be GFCI protected. GFCI protection for the dining room receptacles is allowed but not required.

3. The NEC requires AFCI for bedrooms, but many local juristictions do not. You may provide AFCI if you want, but if you check locally, you may find that you do not have to. The bedroom AFCI circuit(s) may be either 15-amp or 20-amp. There is no requirement for a 20-amp circuit. You may serve two bedrooms with the same circuit if you want, but consider what will likely be running on those two circuits before you decide. If you have a TV and a computer and other stuff in each bedroom, you may want separate circuits. Especially so if you think you might ever use a window air conditioner or a space heater (each of which should probably be on a dedicated circuit anyway). Check locally to see what needs AFCI protection. If there are no local modifications, then everything in the bedroom (lights, recepacles, smoke detector) needs to be on an AFCI circuit.
 
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Old 02-20-06, 07:56 PM
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1. Wiring Simplified states that I will, in general, be following code if I provide a dedicated circuit for, among other things, an electric clothes washer. Is this required, or just recommended? My washing machine is located in a utility room with 2 other duplex receptacles (which I do not use), and I would prefer to feed them using the same branch circuit rather than running two (there are no other nearby circuits that would be convenient to feed from). Also, is GFCI required for a laundry room?

2. Again in Wiring Simplified, the wording for required kitchen receptacles is confusing. It states that two small appliance circuits are required for the kitchen, dining area, etc. The wording in the book is very confusing. Currently, I have 1 kitchen counter receptacle (of which I will be adding 2 more based on spacing requirements) and 4 receptacles in the attached dining area. Can I run these off 1 circuit, or should I run them off 2 circuits? If 2, should both be GFCI protected? 20A required, or 15A ok? For what it's worth, the fridge has a dedicated circuit already.

3. Bedrooms must be AFCI protected. Does this require a 12AWG/20A configuration? None of my local stores carry specialty breakers for my panel (Cutler Hammer BR series) so I have no idea if a 15A AFCI breaker even exists. I assume I can serve 2 bedroom with 1 circuit with no issues?

1) Nec does call for 1 dedicated laundry outlet.
GfcI in laundry rm. if with in 6' of a sink.
2) Nec calls for 2 (two) 20A small appliance ckts for the kitchen counters, again GFCI protected within 6' of the sink.
3) Your dinning rm. outlets must also be 20A.(gfci, i don't beleive so) others may know better.
4) bedrms must be AFCI protected and they do make 15A,just remember every device in a bedroom must be AFCI protected.

Always check your local code as well, the National code is the minium standard. As of Ma. we have almost 1/3 of the book ammended.
 
  #4  
Old 02-21-06, 04:59 PM
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2) Nec calls for 2 (two) 20A small appliance ckts for the kitchen counters, again GFCI protected within 6' of the sink.


Any counter recpts need to be gfci. There is no 6 ft requirment for a kitchen.
 
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Old 02-21-06, 05:30 PM
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Sorry lectriclee, I don't mean to be overly picky, but your information is not sufficiently precise and contains several small errors. For kitchens, dining rooms and laundry areas, you've got to get this exactly right. Pretty close isn't good enough.
 
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Old 02-22-06, 08:03 PM
darinstarr
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Excellent advise as always, thanks guys.

The washing machine will consume most of a 15A circuit on its own. I'll run 12/2 for 20A receptacles in that room, but will not bother with a dedicated line for the washer. I also have a mini-freezer that will go in there, and is rated at 1.3A.

Two GFCI protected 20A circuits for kitchen/dining receptacles, no problem. Add in range, microwave, dishwasher, fridge, and disposal lines, and I will be spending a lot of time above/below the kitchen!

As far as I can tell, we are using the '91 NEC, but this seems a little dated. I'll make a call tomorrow to verify this. Does the '91 NEC have the same AFCI requirements for bedrooms? Currently I run 2 lamps, an alarm clock, and sometimes a small TV in our bedrooms - and that's it. To allow for flexibility in the future, I'll run a single 12/2 20A circuit to feed both rooms.

One final question I just remembered. I will run a dedicated line for an electric clothes dryer. The plate on the inside of the says "Motor: 4.0 amps Heater & accessories: 23A" - I assume this means it should be a 30A circuit, but I'd like some reassurance that I won't be overstepping the "80% of a circuit for fixed loads" rule. Currently, our main panel has a 2-pole 30A breaker feeding a fuse box in the laundry room, which acts as a sub-panel. This panel feeds the washer, dryer, and lights & receptacles for 2 rooms.

Thanks again!
 
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Old 02-22-06, 08:16 PM
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That reference you gave us is really odd because there is no 1991 NEC. There was a 1990 NEC and a 1993 NEC, but no 1991 NEC. And if there was a 1991 NEC, there would have been no mention of AFCI in it.
 
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Old 02-22-06, 09:04 PM
darinstarr
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Hehe...Interesting. I browsed the State of Oregon's Building Code Division website, and nearly every answer there references a section of the 2002 NEC, so the city website may very well be out of date. I'll double-check with them tomorrow.
 
  #9  
Old 02-22-06, 09:19 PM
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You need 10/3+G 30A for the dryer.

Personally, I'd run one circuit per bedroom, although not necessarily each circuit each room.
 
  #10  
Old 02-22-06, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by darinstarr
... will not bother with a dedicated line for the washer.
I wouldn't gripe if you plugged in a tiny freezer instead of a gas clothes dryer.
But could you point me to the exception that makes it not required if it is a bother?


> we are using the '91 NEC
Have to wonder about the people writing these laws...


> I will run a dedicated line for an electric clothes dryer.
> The plate on the inside of the says "Motor: 4.0 amps Heater & accessories: 23A" -
> I assume this means it should be a 30A circuit, but I'd like some reassurance that
> I won't be overstepping the "80% of a circuit for fixed loads" rule.

The 23A figure includes the motor, timer, lights, buzzers, relays, and everything.
 
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Old 02-22-06, 11:44 PM
darinstarr
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Originally Posted by bolide
I wouldn't gripe if you plugged in a tiny freezer instead of a gas clothes dryer.
But could you point me to the exception that makes it not required if it is a bother?
John mentioned above that the washer receptacle need not be on a dedicated circuit, so long as it doesn't serve any areas outside that room. Is this agreed upon, or a point of contention?

I should clarify that the mini-freezer is in fact in the laundry room. The room has 3 receptacles - the one for the washer, the one for the freezer, and another I have never used but will keep anyway.

Originally Posted by bolide
The 23A figure includes the motor, timer, lights, buzzers, relays, and everything.
Originally Posted by classicsat
You need 10/3+G 30A for the dryer.
Thanks for the clarification. No problems there.

Originally Posted by classicsat
Personally, I'd run one circuit per bedroom, although not necessarily each circuit each room.
I had considered it, but am leaning towards one circuit for both rooms due to a) my current requirement (total power consumption for currently used devices in both rooms totals 20% of a 15A circuit, so a 20A circuit should border on excessive for the foreseeable future) and b) I am rapidly running out of space in my panel with all the dedicated circuits for appliances I am running. If there are good reasons for separating them that I'm not thinking of, I'll gladly hear them and consider changing things up.
 
  #12  
Old 02-23-06, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by darinstarr
John mentioned above that the washer receptacle need not be on a dedicated circuit, so long as it doesn't serve any areas outside that room. Is this agreed upon, or a point of contention?
NEC 210.11(C)(2) says it serves only outlets required by 210.52(F) and shall have no other outlets.
210.52(F) allows multiple outlets but requires only one.

John's interpretation is the common one.
My interpretation is that it is really only for laundry facilities.
Just being in the room where the clothes washer is located does not make something laundry.
If the load doesn't pertain to laundry, it is not "for the laundry" and therefore is not required by 210.52(F) and therefore is not permitted by NEC 210.11(C)(2).

But, I repeat, John's interpretation is the common one.
So there is no contention. The "required" should probably have been "required or permitted by 210.52(F)".

When you wrote, "will not bother with a dedicated line for the washer", it appeared that you did not intend to comply with NEC 210.11(C)(2) to have a dedicated, 20A circuit for the laundry. You mentioned a 15A circuit for the washer. But it was not clear to me then that either circuit was going to comply (15A being too small, 20A serving "other outlets").



I am rapidly running out of space in my panel
That's what I always try to tell people. There is never enough room or ampacity for the next project unless you have two panels.
 
  #13  
Old 02-23-06, 10:42 AM
darinstarr
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Thanks Bolide. Since I am getting only snippets of the NEC, and do not know how my inspector will feel on the subject, I will just play it safe and run 2 circuits to that room.

I have yet another question - this time on lighting - that I'll go ahead and throw in here.

It seems the easiest way to wire my lighting circuits will be to run from the source to the ceiling box for the fixture. Out from the ceiling box will be a line to the switch loop for that fixture, and another line that will be the source for the next fixture (realizing that everything inside the ceiling box needs to be wired correctly so that the switch for the first fixture does not turn off every light on the circuit).

Regarding the switch loop. I believe I can run 14/2 from the fixture to the first switch, and then any 3-way or 4-way switches beyond that in the same switch loop will require a feed of 14/3 from the previous switch, correct? Wiring simplified has some decent documentation on what gets connected to what, but for now I just want to verify where 14/2 gets used versus 14/3 to finalize my bill of materials.

Thanks again!
 
  #14  
Old 02-23-06, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by darinstarr
Regarding the switch loop. I believe I can run 14/2 from the fixture to the first switch, and then any 3-way or 4-way switches beyond that in the same switch loop will require a feed of 14/3 from the previous switch, correct? Wiring simplified has some decent documentation on what gets connected to what, but for now I just want to verify where 14/2 gets used versus 14/3 to finalize my bill of materials.
That sounds right. Your basic switch loop doesn't need the "travelers" that go between the 3- and 4-way switches. 14/2 from power to switch and from light to different switch, with 14/3 between all the switches is very common. This lighting circuit is on a 15A breaker, yes?
 
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Old 02-23-06, 12:05 PM
darinstarr
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Originally Posted by MAC702
This lighting circuit is on a 15A breaker, yes?
Yes, sorry - forgot to specify that. I will have 2 15A circuits for general interior lighting.
 
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Old 02-23-06, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by darinstarr
I believe I can run 14/2 from the fixture to the first switch, and then any 3-way or 4-way switches beyond that in the same switch loop will require a feed of 14/3 from the previous switch, correct?
Yes. But if the layout suits you, there is another way.

You can run 14/3 from one light directly to any switch.
Often this results in less wire being used overall.

Use 14/2 frrom that "main" light to any other lights.

Be sure to use boxes with adequate cubic inches for the number of conductors.
Bigger boxes are easier to work with most of the time anyway.
 
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