Trying to avoid more wasted time

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  #1  
Old 03-08-06, 02:02 PM
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Trying to avoid more wasted time

So I have beaten this project to death but the end is in sight. I am soooo close to calling for inspection but want to get a thumbs up from all the folks who have set me straight on so many of the mistakes I have made. I bought more tools than I expected and thrown out lots of fresh wire and other hardware due to an estimating mistake my electrician made. Done ranting.

Here's the overview of the project. I had an electrician upgrade my service to 200A from 100 and he suggested running the wires from the main to a sub panel I just installed. The wires from the main are #2 and run in aluminum flex. The main panel is outside the house, the sub in the garage.

The flex runs from the main up the inside of the wall to the cathedral ceiling cavity then drops from near the top of the attic to the attic floor. As the flex drops it makes a 90 degree turn, then runs along the attic floor against the attic wall edges. At one point, the attic opens up to a larger room and I have drilled holes in a few of the ceiling joists for the flex to snake through.

The main run ends in a 12 x 12 x 4 junction/pull box. Then I connect more flex to the other side of the box and elbows 90 down to the subpanel. Sound OK? Would pictures help?
 
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Old 03-08-06, 04:33 PM
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> The flex runs from the main up the inside of the wall to the
> cathedral ceiling cavity then drops from near the top of the
> attic to the attic floor. As the flex drops it makes a 90 degree turn,
> then runs along the attic floor against the attic wall edges.

What is the cumulative total of all bends in degrees in this run from panel to junction box?

Is there a pull box where you opened the ceiling?


> I have drilled holes in a few of the ceiling joists for the flex to snake through.

May we assume that this is a straight snake?


> Then I connect more flex to the other side of the box and elbows 90 down to the subpanel.

Definitely need pictures of what is inside the box and how the conduit is attached inside the box and inside the sub panel.
 
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Old 03-09-06, 10:22 PM
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Pictures included

I have digital pictures, trying to figure out how to paste them here.
 

Last edited by John Nelson; 03-10-06 at 07:08 AM.
  #4  
Old 03-10-06, 07:07 AM
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You cannot paste them here. Upload them to one of the many free photo-hosting sites, and post a link.
 
  #5  
Old 03-11-06, 12:43 PM
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Sorry John

Originally Posted by Tyger52
I have digital pictures, trying to figure out how to paste them here.
I apologize John, for what ever I did or said that may have upset you. I am a bit hurt that you deleted my replies to bolide when you edited my last reply.

Truly, I am just trying to do a good job here but cannot afford an electrician. This site has helped me so much, I am grateful. Are my answers to bolides' questions gone?

Thanks for any answers.
 
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Old 03-11-06, 08:09 PM
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You didn't do anything wrong. I apparently make a mistake. And yes, I think your replies are now gone. Sorry about that.
 
  #7  
Old 03-13-06, 07:03 PM
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Pictures are here!

Originally Posted by bolide
> The flex runs from the main up the inside of the wall to the
> cathedral ceiling cavity then drops from near the top of the
> attic to the attic floor. As the flex drops it makes a 90 degree turn,
> then runs along the attic floor against the attic wall edges.

What is the cumulative total of all bends in degrees in this run from panel to junction box?

Is there a pull box where you opened the ceiling?


> I have drilled holes in a few of the ceiling joists for the flex to snake through.

May we assume that this is a straight snake?


> Then I connect more flex to the other side of the box and elbows 90 down to the subpanel.

Definitely need pictures of what is inside the box and how the conduit is attached inside the box and inside the sub panel.
cumulative total= 45+135+90 which is 270.
No pull box where I opened the ceiling.
Snake is mainly straight along floor of the attic. I have no idea how straight it is in the ceiling cavity. The exception to this is the hole shows the conduit to be straight in the ceiling.

Here is the link (I hope!) to some pictures with descriptions I put in.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
 
  #8  
Old 03-13-06, 08:24 PM
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>cumulative total= 45+135+90 which is 270.
I think you left out some other possibly significant bends.


> Here is the link (I hope!) to some pictures with descriptions I put in.

Are those EMT box connectors on the small box?


I didn't notice any problems in the pics except that there seems to be more than 270 of bends.

By definition you have 180 from the point it starts up a vertical wall, crosses the cathedral ceiling and is pointing back at the floor.
Then another 90 to head across the floor. The S-curve could be another 90.

So you are pretty maxed out without another pull box along the way.
 
  #9  
Old 03-13-06, 09:46 PM
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Here's my math

I figured 45 for the curve from the main into the cathedral ceiling. The drop to the floor is 180 by definition except that it is coming off a 45 from the ceiling, so I figure 135. Add another 90 to make the right turn. The "S" curve is in the photos but is hard to see, maybe I should take a close up? It is more straight than curved.

Yes, you caught me, those are EMT connectors on the small box. The story there is that I bought the wrong kind when I was new to doing electrical work. It is temporary. I had to re-route the wiring that went across the folding attic ladder I installed. As I re-wire the house, I plan to remove those boxes (another one isn't in the photos). Please let me know if this should be a higher priority.
 
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Old 03-13-06, 10:16 PM
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Just say that you did not tighten the set screws!
 
  #11  
Old 03-21-06, 12:51 PM
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Splicing question again

I am looking for advice on how to splice in a pull box. I have read that the splices should be staggered. Also, I have taken to mean that 6 inches of slack wire means that if the conductor were to run straight through the pull box without a cut or splice, then 6 inches of conductor needs to be added inside the box to allow for slack.

I am not clear if that means 6 inches of conductor on both sides. In other words, 6 inches from feed side of the box and 6 inches from the draw side of the box. If so, that gives 12 inches of loose wire for each conductor, correct?

So that could also mean that one splice could be at the extra 6 inch mark of one conductor, and to stagger, the next splice would need to be at the 7 inch mark of the conductor. If that is the case, then one conductor would have 12 inches, the next 13 inches, and next 14 inches of spare slack. This assumes that one inch staggering is sufficient. Does all of this seem right?
 
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Old 03-22-06, 02:38 AM
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Where did you read this?

Staggering is nice when working in a condulet.
In a box, I don't see that it matters.

You don't understand what a conductor is.
There are twice as many as you think there are.
Yes, the slack applies to each conductor, not the total between two.
 
  #13  
Old 03-22-06, 10:47 AM
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Previous Thread

Originally Posted by bolide
Where did you read this?

Staggering is nice when working in a condulet.
In a box, I don't see that it matters.

You don't understand what a conductor is.
There are twice as many as you think there are.
Yes, the slack applies to each conductor, not the total between two.
See this thread, the reply from Tachhttp://forum.doityourself.com/showpo...0&postcount=21 for his comment about staggering the splices in a box.

I thought a conductor was anything that conducts electricity. A single wire seems like a conductor to me although I guess I probably wrote something that didn't paint the picture I was trying to describe. By the way, I did try to tighten the set screws on those boxes but of course it did not help hold the cable, there was too much room thankfully.
 
  #14  
Old 03-22-06, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyger52
the reply from Tach for his comment about staggering the splices in a box.
I'll let him answer for that.

In a box, if you have enough slack, staggering is entirely inconsequential and a waste of time and wire.


> I thought a conductor was anything that conducts electricity.

Not the way it is used in the NEC.


> A single wire seems like a conductor to me

It is. What I call two conductors you call only one conductor ("that gives 12 inches of loose wire for each conductor").
Even after you splice them, they are still two conductors.


> I did try to tighten the set screws on those boxes
> but of course it did not help hold the cable, there
> was too much room thankfully.

You would be risking compromising the insulation.


Could make you wonder about the condition of the electrical wiring in the house beside you.
 
  #15  
Old 03-22-06, 05:20 PM
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In a box, if you have enough slack, staggering is entirely inconsequential and a waste of time and wire

again, your opinion bolide, there is nothing wrong with staggering splices wether it is bugs, crimps, or even blues. your going to make each splice in the exact same spot to fill up that part of the box. your comment is right up there with teilling someone to stick there hands near a live motor thats not turning to help it along. i really think you are an a**hole and i will leave this forum b/c of you. i am getting tired of telling people with no clue what to do and tired of people like you, the think they know it alls. bye.
 
  #16  
Old 03-22-06, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tach
you're going to make each splice in the exact same spot to fill up that part of the box.
That's not how it works. I said "if you have enough slack".
Given slack, you can bend one in one direction and one in another direction.
They don't fill up the exact same spot at all.
(I also mentioned "Staggering is nice when working in a condulet" for the reason that you gave. The leads on a submersible pump are another example - I often stagger those by 6" and they aren't in any sort of box at all.)

In a box, I simply fold the wires where there is room.
Unlike a condulet, all conductors are clamped to the side of the box.


> your comment is right up there with teilling someone to stick there hands near
> a live motor that's not turning to help it along.

Your opinion.


> i am getting tired of telling people with no clue what to do

This forum takes a lot of patience. Even I have to take a break sometimes and probably should more often.
I'm sure not everyone has the patience to be a teacher.
That's okay.


Originally Posted by Tyger52
one conductor would have 12 inches, the next 13 inches, and next 14 inches of spare slack. This assumes that one inch staggering is sufficient.
Unfortunately, tach didn't answer. Perhaps he has a good technique.
Perhaps it even saves wire and time.

My view is that if splices are on top of each other, you don't have enough slack.
The wires must not be taut after the splice is made.
 
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Old 03-22-06, 06:33 PM
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3/8/06--3/22/06 Don't take this wrong, Please. Whats your time worth?
 
  #18  
Old 03-23-06, 03:54 PM
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This board has saved me lots of $

Originally Posted by lectriclee
3/8/06--3/22/06 Don't take this wrong, Please. Whats your time worth?
Not sure who you are asking but I will tell you what my time is worth. I used to estimate how long it would take me to do something and multiply it by my approximate hourly wage then compare it to a professional's cost.

Right now it does not matter. I made a decision to rewire my house to get rid of the AL wiring and since I cannot afford an electrician, here I am. I did hire an electrician, blew all my meager savings ($1200), and now am putting in this box to cover his mistake.

I hope I am not taking your question wrong, I am very sad to see that Tach left. I know I may frustrate many because I ask a lot of questions. How much did I save by doing it myself? I am learning, and I plan to one day donate my time to Habitat for Humanity. Right now, I want to make my house safer for my family.
 
  #19  
Old 03-23-06, 08:34 PM
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More pictures

I took pictures of the work I did last night. Here they are:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2401517...7594089247460/

If anyone can spot something that needs improvement or re-work, please let me know. I plan to call for inspection in a few weeks.

The furthest away view of the box is from the angle of the flex coming from the main panel. On the other side of the panel is the flex going down to the sub panel. I did a close up of one of the splices. I exposed about 1.25" of copper using the method from Rex Caldwell's book. I couldn't decide if the inspector might want to see the exposed copper to confirm there is enough touching the splice. I am wondering if I should tape the exposed copper?
 
  #20  
Old 03-23-06, 09:34 PM
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i did look at the photo and this one item it kinda common with DIY's done this have the conductor exposed too much i did see the way the connector hook up it look good but really you dont need to peel the insluation off that far back.
but if you want to correct the mistake all you have to do is snip off about half inch then reinstert it back again that way it will be covered all the way nice.

the other point with some boxes you have the ground wire to be bonded to the box as well

Merci , marc
 
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