K & T wire gauge question


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Old 03-25-06, 08:31 AM
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K & T wire gauge question

Looking at another thread, I noticed that many of you state that K&T only comes/came in 14 awg.

I'm planning on a panel upgrade and rewire of my home next month. Existing service is the original service..60 A fused, only 4 circuits. Of course it's K&T, which I will be replacing all that I can in the home during the upgrade.

The panel has 3 20A fuses and 15A fuse. I know the 20A fuses are not really 15A circuits because the recess where the fuse screws into says '20A only'. I've also tried to screw 15A fuses into the 20A circuit (had a little wire gauge problem...don't ask), and it was not possible. 20A in the 15A is not possible either (just tried it). So apparently it was designed that way. So here are my questions.

1) If all K&T wiring is 14 awg, then I'll either need to rip out all the K&T on the 20A existing/future circuits, or if I cannot, I'll need to put those circuits on a 15A breaker. Some are in areas where it would violate code; i.e. bathroom, kitchen.

2) From what I've read, the wires feeding the panel are 12 awg; it's just the K&T where it branches off from the home runs that is 14 awg. If this is the case, it helps me a little bit. But what I should really do is rewire those home runs as well, to provide a ground back to the panel.

3) I've noticed that some of the hot K&T wires are black, and some are red. Any difference?

4) In my situation, what would you do?
 
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Old 03-25-06, 08:39 AM
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1) for a service upgrade you would have to bring ckts into compliance with current code. IE: AFCI for bedrooms etc. (A whole nother tale).

What type of house is it? Ranch, cape colonial etc... This would determine the level of dificulty to rewire. Some times it is easier to rewire than to patch. And this site will give some good direction and trade tecniques that you may not otherwise consider.
The more info the better, even if it appears trivial. Good luck.
 
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Old 03-25-06, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Keesha
1) for a service upgrade you would have to bring ckts into compliance with current code. IE: AFCI for bedrooms etc. (A whole nother tale).

What type of house is it? Ranch, cape colonial etc... This would determine the level of dificulty to rewire. Some times it is easier to rewire than to patch. And this site will give some good direction and trade tecniques that you may not otherwise consider.
The more info the better, even if it appears trivial. Good luck.
Not according to the inspector in my city. The panel upgrade only world be inspected and how the circuits come into the panel. According to him, I am not required to touch the existing wiring, including the non-grounded wiring that comes into the panel.

Not sure how to classify my home, but I can get to 99.9% of the wiring. It's only 1 or 2 branches that I cannot get to without doing $$ damage (tiling on both sides of the wall) in the kitchen. Other than that I plan to re-wire everything to code.

It's those last 1 or 2 runs of K&T wiring, and if those are 14awg, then It'll have to be a 15A circuit, which will not be to code (probably not going to have the re-wiring inspected anyway, just the panel upgrade)
 
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Old 03-25-06, 10:46 AM
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Ok, Great that you spoke with the AHJ first, You saved yourself alot of agrivation right out of the box. We should all list are geographical area since there are so many variations, US-UK-CAn> etc.
In Mass, WE MUST upgrade the breakers and such, on a panel change. Not the wireing, So 2 wire ckts I would have to do either GFCI brkrs or out lets, Beds AFCIS etc..
\
K&T-- Can you access the kitchen ckts from below? You could loacate area drill up, Snake down.This would illiminate any damage to the tiles. And if you need to access the ceiling (a little more labor intensive) Remove a cabinate or 2 and all your invasion will be unseen. Just some thoughts, You know if it was easy everyone would do it. So think and look around there will be a way,Life is full of options. If at all possable, I would try to get rid of all K&T.
 
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Old 03-25-06, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by lectriclee
Ok, Great that you spoke with the AHJ first, You saved yourself alot of agrivation right out of the box. We should all list are geographical area since there are so many variations, US-UK-CAn> etc.
In Mass, WE MUST upgrade the breakers and such, on a panel change. Not the wireing, So 2 wire ckts I would have to do either GFCI brkrs or out lets, Beds AFCIS etc..
\
K&T-- Can you access the kitchen ckts from below? You could loacate area drill up, Snake down.This would illiminate any damage to the tiles. And if you need to access the ceiling (a little more labor intensive) Remove a cabinate or 2 and all your invasion will be unseen. Just some thoughts, You know if it was easy everyone would do it. So think and look around there will be a way,Life is full of options. If at all possable, I would try to get rid of all K&T.
Yes, I'll try and remove all the K&T. I'll be working with an electrician so hopefully he has some ideas. My real question was if I CANNOT remove some of it, does it have to be on a 15A circuit?

I know that is against code if it's for the kitchen countertop, so humor me..

Thanks.
 
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Old 03-25-06, 10:53 AM
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Ok, I May get chasticed for this (spelling?). But do not under any circumstance OVER FUSE any thing. YOUR family lives there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Old 03-25-06, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lectriclee
Ok, I May get chasticed for this (spelling?). But do not under any circumstance OVER FUSE any thing. YOUR family lives there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I haven't overfused anything. The existing panel has 20A fuses. It's built that way. I can't put a smaller fuse in because it won't go in.

My question is if I do upgrade, and leave the knob and tube in, do i need to put that circuit on a
15A breaker.

I will not overfuse anything. If something is overfused now, well, I can't really do anything about it because all but one fuse in my box is 20A.
 
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Old 03-25-06, 02:36 PM
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Ok, If you change and go with breakers.
Then you must feed the 15A ckt (14G wire) with a 15A brkr. REGARDLESS of what it is now.
2 wrongs don't make it right.
 
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Old 03-25-06, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fuente
The existing panel has 20A fuses. It's built that way. I can't put a smaller fuse in because it won't go in.
Standard fuses are all the same size. That's part of the problem with fuses. It's all too easy for stupid people to put in a larger fuse when they keep blowing the correct size fuse on a circuit that is overloaded.

If you have 14 gage wire use 15 amp fuses or 15 amp breakers. Period. End of discussion. Replace the those 20 amp fuses with 15 amp ones if the wire is 14 gage.
 
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Old 03-25-06, 03:50 PM
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If you are unable to interchange your 15 and 20 amp fuses then you have what are known as "type S" fuses and your box has type S adapters installed in the original fuseholders. Once installed the adapters are almost impossible to remove without totally destroying both the adapter AND the original fuseholder. The adapters were obviously installed AFTER the box was installed because #14 wire has NEVER been okay on 20 ampere circuits.


Anyway, the answer (as already posted) is that you MAY NOT use a 20 ampere circuit breaker or fuse on #14 wire.
 
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Old 03-25-06, 05:05 PM
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yep, they are type S fuses. Thanks for the clarification.

Ok, so when I do the re-wire, those 3 20A circuits I'll put on 15A breakers. So the entire house will be on 15A. Not really a big deal. But safe.

Then, I'll bring everything over that I can to the new 20A breakers. If I cannot remove all of the knob and tube from any run on any circuit, I'll just make that circuit a 15A.

Regardless of code, it's got to be safer to put the bathroom receptacle on a 15A circuit rather than a 20A circuit with 14 awg. That being said, I'll try to remove every bit of K&T that I can.

Thanks all !
 
 

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