trouble with heated tile floor

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Old 04-01-06, 10:56 AM
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trouble with heated tile floor

I recently installed for the first time in my illustrious career a heating mat for a stone tile floor. The floor area is fairly large at just over 500 S/F so it is on 2 separate thermostats. They are rated at 220V a piece so I have 2 20A double pole dedicated circuits to accommodate both. Here is my mystery. One of the thermostats works perfectly with the floor working as it should. The other wired the exact same way does not. I have taken Ohm readings on the one that doesn't work and it is right on where it should be. Both feed wires from the panel register as hot as well. I have tried switching the thermostat, I know is good, to that circuit and get the same thing. Nothing. The company that makes the heating mat is called Thermosoft. I have spoken to their tech rep (several times) and he was at a loss at to why it wasn't working as well. Any suggestions would be helpful. I am totally stuck on this one. thanks
 
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Old 04-01-06, 11:37 AM
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Are you using full size (double width) circuit breakers, so that you have 240 volts when you measure between the two hot wires?
 
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Old 04-01-06, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by racraft
Are you using full size (double width) circuit breakers, so that you have 240 volts when you measure between the two hot wires?
I am using the full size double slots i.e. using both phases. I have not measured them together but independantly and getting 110V (around) a piece just like the one that is working.
 
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Old 04-01-06, 11:58 AM
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> I have not measured them together but independently
> and getting 110V (around) a piece just like the one that
> is working.

On 240V, you have to measure between them.
But most likely it will be 240V.

Is the junction for the mat at the thermostat or where?

You need to test the 240V there also.
 

Last edited by bolide; 04-03-06 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 04-01-06, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bolide
> I have not measured them together but independently
> and getting 110V (around) a piece just like the one that
> is working.

On 240V, you have to measure between them.
But most likely it will be 240V.

Is the junction for the mat at the thermoset or where?

You need to test the 240V there also.
Yes the junction is at the thermostat box with the homerun going from there. The mat is fed by a steel mesh insulated line that contains 3 wires, 2 insulated hot wires and one bare ground. I have tried connecting the wires directly (no thermostat) and still no heat from the floor. I was told I could do this by the Thermosoft guy since there is no resistence in the therm itself just a switch. I will see about reading between them next time I am there. Probably monday. Thanks for the attention. This one really has me puzzled
 
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Old 04-03-06, 06:57 AM
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Look very closely at the breaker. I think you either have the wrong one or it's installed incorrectly. Measure voltage between the 2 hots (as bolide suggested) and I'm betting you'll find no reading.

Doug M.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by BuiLDPro68
I was told I could do this by the Thermosoft guy since there is no resistence in the therm itself just a switch.
Correct.

> I will see about reading between them next time I am there.

Also, with the heater completely disconnected from the circuit (meaning disconnect both black and red), check the resistance between the black and red to the heater only (using the Ohms X 1 range on your multimeter if applicable).
 
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Old 04-03-06, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by dougm
Look very closely at the breaker. I think you either have the wrong one or it's installed incorrectly. Measure voltage between the 2 hots (as bolide suggested) and I'm betting you'll find no reading.

Doug M.
yup that was it. I did something screwy. I was able to correct it thanks. Now I'm having trouble with the damn thermostat. It holds for about 30 seconds then clicks off into an error code "E2" whatever that means, but I am much closer to figuring this thing out. I'll tell you what. I am in no hurry to take on another one of these. It is a super pain to mud over the mat to begin with, difficult to get it to evenly cover the floor (mats only come in 3 sizes and you cannot cut them to length without ruining the OHM level. The thermostat is actually designed for foriegn 220V so you end up putting hot to the pole labeled (N) which I guess is ok just doesn't feel right. ::Sigh:: but at least now I'm getting to the bottom of it. Thanks again guys.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 01:06 PM
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Have you checked connections on the thermostat to make sure everything is correct? Sounds like you have a wire swapped - heat wire on one of the line terminals and line on one of the heat wire terminals and it's tripping the built in GFCI.

There are several thermostats available for heated floors that are made for US installation. For the most part, as long as the voltage and load rating are sufficient for the heat grid, they're interchangable. All should have floor sensors and a built-in GFCI.

Doug M.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dougm
Have you checked connections on the thermostat to make sure everything is correct? Sounds like you have a wire swapped - heat wire on one of the line terminals and line on one of the heat wire terminals and it's tripping the built in GFCI.

There are several thermostats available for heated floors that are made for US installation. For the most part, as long as the voltage and load rating are sufficient for the heat grid, they're interchangable. All should have floor sensors and a built-in GFCI.

Doug M.
Naw they are on the right poles. pretty clearly marked as far as that goes. If it were that bassackwards it would trip right away. besides the GFI part isn't what's lighting up. holds for about 30 seconds then clicks over to the error code "E2". (nice if I knew what the code stood for will find out when I call them again) When the GFI trips on these, a red light comes on and has the normal test and reset buttons, that is not what's happening. Just the E2 message no red light. Right now I'm thinking it's something with the thermostat itself since now when I wire it direct (no thermostat) it works perfectly. Again I appreciate the help. Would like to bill these people someday lol.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 01:37 PM
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Ooos, sorry about that. Let fingers move before brain... E2 - Might be the floor temp sensor isn't connected...

Doug M.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dougm
Ooos, sorry about that. Let fingers move before brain... E2 - Might be the floor temp sensor isn't connected...

Doug M.
Don't feel bad my fingers often move before the brain gets me in more trouble, lol. I thought of that as well and I tried moving the sensor wires around even though they are supposed to work either way. It could very well be something with that still but they look to be in as well as I can see anyway. If something is wrong with the sensor wire itself I am up the proverbial creek! I may end up taking the other therm down that's working correctly and see if I get the same thing in the other spot before I order another. This floor has been a major pain in the neck from the start. Some jobs are just like that I guess.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 02:09 PM
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ok for the hell of it I did an ohm reading on the sensor itself. set to 2000 I get nothing just the ambient 1. set to 2000k I get like 007. Not sure what that means but I'm thinking Oh oh.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 02:24 PM
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set to 2000 I get nothing just the ambient 1. set to 2000k I get like 007. Not sure what that means but I'm thinking Oh oh.
Depeding on the thermostat, I'd think you should see more like 10,000 ohms. The reading will vary depending on temp. and it probably goes lower with higher temps. How hot is it in there?? You probably have either a bad sensor or a bad wire. I don't suppose the wall is open so you can trace the wire all the way down to the floor?

Doug M.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 03:08 PM
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yeah I think that goes back to the fingers berfore brain thing. I had the floor on for pete's sake. So I wont be getting anything accurate there. Grasping at staws here. Still good chance something is wrong with the sensor wire and if that is the case I got troubles. no way to trace it to the floor even without tearing up wall. Doubtful that any breaks occured due to my installation. I was careful around it. Just have to wait and see. Probably be by there tomorrow.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 03:16 PM
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Have you checked for proper voltage (240 volts) out of the breaker yet?
 
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Old 04-03-06, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by racraft
Have you checked for proper voltage (240 volts) out of the breaker yet?
yes. all that is right now. heater works fine hooked direct. I need to try the other therm I think before I do anything. I have feeling it's going to be something with that sensor.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 10:38 PM
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Is it possible to test these things before you install the tiles? It would suck to have to tear out a bunch of tile because you got a bad mat. I'm thinking about doing one of these when I get around to my bathroom. Is it possible to use a thermostat on a timer? It would be nice to have it warm up before you get up in the morning to shower.

I know a tile guy that said he is now doing heated floors in 90% of his installations, since he is now a sales rep for the manufacturer. You can feel sorry for him.
 
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Old 04-03-06, 10:56 PM
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yes you can check before you install with an OHM meter, that is imperative. They are becoming quite popular these days just not with me. More pain then profit. You can get all kinds of thermostats. The one that's giving me headaches now you can set anyway you want including when for it to come on and off up to 7 events a day.
 
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Old 10-13-09, 07:37 AM
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I just read this post with great interest as I'm considering using their product for a small bathroom that I am remodelling myself. (I'm a homeowner)

I've installed a similar product in another bathroom (Nuheat). That project went very smoothly for me. the floor is heating nicely after two years.

Im just wondering how the company was to deal with and how much they helped you through this ordeal?

I spoke to a sales rep who seemed quite knowlegeable and helpful. Just wondering if that carries on after the sale.

Interesting that they sell spare floor sensors for installing when you put the tile down. you don't hook it up unless the first one craps out. I guess its cheap insurance ($17) in case one runs into a similar problem to yours.

Were the folks at Thermosoft helpful? I won't ask if you'd use thier product again as you have already answered that question!
thanks,
 
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