Quick kitchen/dining room outlet ?

Reply

  #1  
Old 04-12-06, 01:10 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 37
Question Quick kitchen/dining room outlet ?

I think I have read that the dining room is considered an extension of the kitchen and has to be included on the 2 or more dedicated 20amp kitchen small appliance circuits which cannot be used for lighting. Since I plan on putting the dining room receptacles on their own circuit (a 3rd circuit), can I place the one overhead light in the dining room on this circuit? Thank you in advance for your assistance.

-Bill
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-12-06, 01:21 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Great Barrington MA
Posts: 532
I am leary of giving any electrical advice especially after this one thread lol, but I generally go by there can be up to 10 recepticals on one 15amp circuit. Or 10 light fixtures or a combination thereof. I like to be a bit under code on that if possible but have run a full 10 recess lights on one circuit with no problems. You should check the codes in your area to be sure.
 
  #3  
Old 04-12-06, 02:00 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
No. Dining room receptacles must be on a 20 amp small appliance circuit, which means no lights on the circuit.
 
  #4  
Old 04-12-06, 02:49 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Great Barrington MA
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by racraft
No. Dining room receptacles must be on a 20 amp small appliance circuit, which means no lights on the circuit.
yeah unless the dining room is actually a completely seperate room (like it is in my house) and/or the circuit is going to be 20A running appliances then yes no lights.
 
  #5  
Old 04-12-06, 04:07 PM
bolide's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 1,909
Question

Originally Posted by BuiLDPro68
unless the dining room is actually a completely separate room (like it is in my house) and/or the circuit is going to be 20A running appliances then yes no lights.
I'm interested to hear exactly how you believe NEC article 210.52(B)(2) is to be interpreted.

How do you define "a completely separate room"?
Does there have to be a door or half-door hung in the doorway?
Can their be a service counter that opens between the two rooms?
 
  #6  
Old 04-12-06, 04:45 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 37
Thank you all for the replys. I had a feeling that I wouldn't be able to put the light on this circuit. Now if what BuiLDPro68 says is true about being a seperate room, my dining room is separated from the kitchen by a doorway (used to have door on it).
 
  #7  
Old 04-12-06, 05:11 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Great Barrington MA
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by slukster
Thank you all for the replys. I had a feeling that I wouldn't be able to put the light on this circuit. Now if what BuiLDPro68 says is true about being a seperate room, my dining room is separated from the kitchen by a doorway (used to have door on it).
I don't think there is ever a time where you want to run a lamp on a 20A circuit.If it was 15A and seperate from any kitchen appliances I don't see the trouble. However, both the mod and boldie specialize in electric where I do not so I would defer to them.
 
  #8  
Old 04-12-06, 05:20 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Great Barrington MA
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by bolide
I'm interested to hear exactly how you believe NEC article 210.52(B)(2) is to be interpreted.

How do you define "a completely separate room"?
Does there have to be a door or half-door hung in the doorway?
Can their be a service counter that opens between the two rooms?
NEC article 210.52(B)(2) states GFI's from bathrooms or kitchens must be dedicated on thier own circuits yes. I would consider walkiing through a doorway (door or not) to be in another room. However I am not 100% on the official interpitation.
 
  #9  
Old 04-12-06, 08:24 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
Dining rooms are confusing. The dining room receptacles must be served by a small appliance circuit. Small appliance circuits apply to kitchen counter tops and some related areas, including dining rooms.

What is important is this. If you have one circuit serving your dining room receptacles, it must be 20 amps, and cannot serve lights anywhere.

Put your lights on some other circuit.
 
  #10  
Old 04-13-06, 01:07 AM
bolide's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 1,909
Originally Posted by BuiLDPro68
NEC article 210.52(B)(2) states GFIs from bathrooms or kitchens must be dedicated on their own circuits yes.
No, that's not how it is stated. In fact, that paragraph doesn't discuss bathrooms or GFCI protection; nor does "no other outlets" mean "dedicated", but rather that the circuit serves only receptacles and not lighting (unless the lighting is something that you plugged in to a receptacle).

I am curious about your source of information about NEC article 210.52(B)(2) seeing that it is completely wrong.


> I would consider walking through a doorway (door or not) to be in another room.

Nice idea. But the NEC does not mention any exception for a "separate room", and further, it specifically includes dining rooms and similar areas.

So unless the receptacle runs refrigeration equipment or is controlled by a switch for lighting purposes, I don't see how it can be excluded from being counted among the two or more small appliance circuits serving the kitchen and dining room. Even if you have six circuits, they are still counted as two or more.


> I don't think there is ever a time where you want to run a lamp on a 20A circuit.

Are you going to tell us why? If there is an issue with this, we need to be informed as most of us recommend 20A for all general purpose circuits serving receptacles.
The only reason to use 15A for gp receptacle circuits that I know of is to cut costs by using thinner wire.

I have a lamp that draws less than 0.0003A. What size breaker and wire do you recommend I should have for the receptacle serving it according to your source?
 
  #11  
Old 04-13-06, 08:01 AM
itsunclebill's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Denver, CO area
Posts: 221
The code interpretation is pretty simple. If the room is a dining room, the receptacles must either be an extention of a 20 AMP kitchen small appliance circuit, or one or more separate 20 AMP circuits that feed only the receptacles in the dining room. In either event, lighting is not permitted on the circuit.

There is no reason not to install a light fixture on a 20 AMP circuit as long as it has no instructions to the contrary.

Personally, I use 15 AMP circuits for lighting almost exclusively. The numbers of wires and size of devices that wind up in switchboxes lend themselves to wiring much easier with #14, even with the largest available boxes. I do, however, put in a number of 15 AMP lighting circuits.
 
  #12  
Old 04-13-06, 09:59 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Great Barrington MA
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by bolide
No, that's not how it is stated. In fact, that paragraph doesn't discuss bathrooms or GFCI protection; nor does "no other outlets" mean "dedicated", but rather that the circuit serves only receptacles and not lighting (unless the lighting is something that you plugged in to a receptacle).

I am curious about your source of information about NEC article 210.52(B)(2) seeing that it is completely wrong.


> I would consider walking through a doorway (door or not) to be in another room.

Nice idea. But the NEC does not mention any exception for a "separate room", and further, it specifically includes dining rooms and similar areas.

So unless the receptacle runs refrigeration equipment or is controlled by a switch for lighting purposes, I don't see how it can be excluded from being counted among the two or more small appliance circuits serving the kitchen and dining room. Even if you have six circuits, they are still counted as two or more.


> I don't think there is ever a time where you want to run a lamp on a 20A circuit.

Are you going to tell us why? If there is an issue with this, we need to be informed as most of us recommend 20A for all general purpose circuits serving receptacles.
The only reason to use 15A for gp receptacle circuits that I know of is to cut costs by using thinner wire.

I have a lamp that draws less than 0.0003A. What size breaker and wire do you recommend I should have for the receptacle serving it according to your source?
Outside receptacles, basement receptacles, and garage receptacles can be run on the same circuits whether 15 amp rated 14 awg branch circuit conductors or 20 amp rated on 12 awg branch circuit conductors, and can be protected by the same GFCI device again not mattering whether the GFCI receptacle if used is a 15 amp rated GFCI receptacle on a 15 or 20 amp rated branch circuit or 20 amp rated GFCI receptacle on a 20 amp rated branch circuit. NEC Article 210.8 and Article 210.21.B.2 Kitchen NEC Article 210-52.B.2 and Article 210.11.C.1 and bathroom NEC Article 210.11.C.3 receptacles must be dedicated as their own circuits, therefore kitchen and bathroom receptacles must not be wired on the same circuits as the garage, basement or outside receptacle circuits regardless the fact that they are required to be installed with GFCI protection.

personally the only time I use 20A circuits is for large appliances like an AC unit (dedicated one outlet) or for a garage that is going to use power tools whatever or for kitchen GFI's that are going to be powering multi appliances etc. If you have a circuit that is dedicated to lamps only I don't understand why you would need 20A. Never said you couldn't do it or it might not even be better. I was taught that 15A and 14-2 was plenty for general usage. Most recepticals are after all designed for 14-2 hence 12-2 wont fit in the back of them (not saying you can't loop 12-2 on the poles. Anyway the point it moot seeing how if it's a question of my advice against a full fledge electrician I would recommend going with the electricians.
 
  #13  
Old 04-13-06, 10:12 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
In the US I hope that you are using 20 amp circuits for the bathroom receptacles and for the small appliance circuits, and for the laundry. They are required there.

As for using them elsewhere, if you aren't then you are doing your customers a disservice, except perhaps for lightsing (and only lighting) circuits. You are also doing your customers a disservice if you are using the back stab connections on devices.
 
  #14  
Old 04-13-06, 10:35 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Great Barrington MA
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by racraft
In the US I hope that you are using 20 amp circuits for the bathroom receptacles and for the small appliance circuits, and for the laundry. They are required there.

As for using them elsewhere, if you aren't then you are doing your customers a disservice, except perhaps for lightsing (and only lighting) circuits. You are also doing your customers a disservice if you are using the back stab connections on devices.
I do use 20A for everything described in the top paragraph. However I admit I do use 15A just about everywhere else and I do use the backstab connectors. If this is so bad why are they designed that way? and why have I seen all the electricians I know do it that way? Not being argumenative I really want to know.
 
  #15  
Old 04-13-06, 10:54 AM
bolide's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 1,909
> I do use the backstab connectors. If this is so bad why are they designed that way?

That's what we'd like to know. Not enough dead bodies, just nuisance failures.


> and why have I seen all the electricians I know do it that way?

I haven't encountered one on this forum.

There have been quite a few threads where the failure was from a backstabbed receptacle.

Eventually they fail if there is a heavy enough load.
 
  #16  
Old 04-13-06, 11:01 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Great Barrington MA
Posts: 532
come to think of it I have heard electricians in this forum speak out against the backstabs. I like to use them for the obvious reason, it's easier then looping the wire on the poles. However you all have given me something to think about. Though I personally haven't had a problem with it I think I will start looping. 2 electricians against one mechanic. I give!
 
  #17  
Old 04-13-06, 11:05 AM
bolide's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 1,909
Originally Posted by BuiLDPro68
Outside receptacles, basement receptacles, and garage receptacles can be run on the same circuits whether 15 amp rated 14 awg branch circuit conductors or 20 amp rated on 12 awg branch circuit conductors
Are you saying that you run just one circuit for all these?

> and can be protected by the same GFCI device again not mattering
> whether the GFCI receptacle if used is a 15 amp rated GFCI receptacle

The GFCI itself is rated 20A.


> If you have a circuit that is dedicated to lamps only I don't understand
> why you would need 20A.

I don't either. But people plug in electric heaters, 1400W amplifiers, vacuum sweepers, and all kinds of things, even 1000W halogen worklamps.


> I was taught that 15A and 14-2 was plenty for general usage.

Years ago, it was. But it fails to anticipate future increases in needs.


> Most receptacles are after all designed for 14-2 hence 12-2
> won't fit in the back of them

I always recommend spec grade receptacles which do accept #12 in the lugs; GFCI do also.
 
  #18  
Old 04-13-06, 11:24 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Great Barrington MA
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by BuiLDPro68
Outside receptacles, basement receptacles, and garage receptacles can be run on the same circuits whether 15 amp rated 14 awg branch circuit conductors or 20 amp rated on 12 awg branch circuit conductors

Are you saying that you run just one circuit for all these?

I don't no, but code would seem to allow it. If I am using a GFI then it is automatically a 20A in my book. Any outside outlets I like to have dedicated if possible.
 
  #19  
Old 04-13-06, 01:45 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 37
I am clear on what I have to do. Thank you all.
-Bill
 
  #20  
Old 04-13-06, 02:43 PM
itsunclebill's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Denver, CO area
Posts: 221
For what it's worth, receptacles are specifically designed not to take #12 wire in a backstab configuration because the retainers aren't capable of standing the pressures the #12 wire puts on them. Listed duplex receptacles sold in the US are rated to be used on 20 AMP circuits and hence with #12 wire. Whether or not you can use #12 wire in the backstab connector has absolutely nothing to do with the receptacles' rating. If using #12 you use the screws.

All that said, backstab connectors are UL listed and the electricians in the cut-throat tract house business do things the fastest way possible, which is backstabbing. There are even a system of boxes and devices out where the device locks into the box by pushing (frontstab?) and the cover snaps on. The receptacle or switch can be wired and installed in the box in less than 10 seconds.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
'