Code question re: Light swith at entry doors

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Old 04-15-06, 01:58 PM
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Code question re: Light swith at entry doors

I have been told that NEC requires a switch that controls an inside light at ALL entry doors..... If this is so, how far/close must it be to the door?? I have several doors from the bedrooms to the back yard and was not planning switches to the inside lights at those doors......But if I need them to meet code, I got more work to do.......
 
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Old 04-15-06, 02:09 PM
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The NEC has NO such rule. The NEC wants at least one, that's it. Building codes may differ.
Here is the applicable section:

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A) Dwelling Units In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).

(1) Habitable Rooms At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.
 
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Old 04-15-06, 02:17 PM
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Thank you...... I will check with Phoenix to see if they have "monkeyed" with the NEC and require it..... Thanks again
 
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Old 04-16-06, 10:21 AM
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Of course the question is whether you would want to walk into a dark room from the outside and stumble around looking for a switch.

You already need have to have a switch for an outside light by the door anyway. Where in the room are you planning to install it? If by the door, put in a 2 gang box and run a 3 wire cable to the other switch box so the room lights can be switched from either location

2005 NEC ©®
210.70 Lighting Outlets Required.
(A) Dwelling Units. In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).

(2) Additional Locations. Additional lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with (A)(2)(a), (A)(2)(b), and (A)(2)(c).

(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access
 
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Old 04-17-06, 08:24 AM
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210.70 Lighting Outlets Required
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A) Dwelling Units In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
(1) Habitable Rooms At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Does it mean that we have to install either a ceiling or a wall light in a bedroom? I notice new houses have a switch to contral a receptacle only, allowing the dweller to plug in a lamp.
 
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Old 04-17-06, 08:59 AM
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That was already answered. And it's not new, Around here, most of the really old houses were like that. Then, when I was a kid, the current generation of houses kind of went away from it and used lights in the ceilings. Now, most modern houses here do both.

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.
 
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Old 04-17-06, 09:08 AM
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Certain rooms in houses are allowed to have either a ceiling light controlled by a switch or or a switch that controls a receptacle.

Generally speaking a switched receptacle is cheaper, therefor most tract built houses have a receptacle controlled by a switch.
 
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Old 04-17-06, 09:20 AM
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>Habitable Rooms At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room

When I read this code, I just assume that we need install a light fixture in the bedroom. But when we negotiate a new building construction with the builder, they ask for extra $100 for each ceiling fixture.
 
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Old 04-17-06, 09:31 AM
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The switched receptacle counts as a "lighting outlet" and as the cheapest way to conform to the NEC, it is all the contractor is required to do unless specified otherwise.
 
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Old 04-17-06, 03:29 PM
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What Mac said.

A receptacle IS an outlet, and so is a fixture box.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
The NEC has NO such rule. The NEC wants at least one, that's it. Building codes may differ.
Here is the applicable section:

210.70 Lighting Outlets Required
Lighting outlets shall be installed where specified in 210.70(A), (B), and (C).
(A) Dwelling Units In dwelling units, lighting outlets shall be installed in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).

(1) Habitable Rooms At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
Exception No. 1: In other than kitchens and bathrooms, one or more receptacles controlled by a wall switch shall be permitted in lieu of lighting outlets.

Let's not confuse what the code is saying here....
It does NOT say:
At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
(one switch in every habitable room...)

It does say:
At least one wall switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in every habitable room and bathroom.
(one lighting outlet in every habitable room...)

Unless there is a local amendment to the NEC, you could have all the switches for the entire house in the basement (with one possible exception of stairs - MAYBE).
 
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Old 04-18-06, 03:16 PM
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Actually you are right. The "at least one" is referring to the outlet, not the switch. My mistake.
This is an oversight IMO by the code making panels. The literal interpretation is saying the switch can be anywhere.
It IS inferring though, IMO, that the "at least one" outlet must have "at least one" switch.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony Bagadonutz
Let's not confuse what the code is saying here....
Look who is talking!

> Unless there is a local amendment to the NEC, you could have all the switches
> for the entire house in the basement (with one possible exception of stairs - MAYBE).

Come on! Where did you get this idea?

The only reasonable interpretation is that the switch has to be on a wall of the room in which the outlet is. And the switch has to be where most adults can use it.
Keep it up and someone will say the T word.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bolide
Look who is talking!

> Unless there is a local amendment to the NEC, you could have all the switches
> for the entire house in the basement (with one possible exception of stairs - MAYBE).

Come on! Where did you get this idea?

The only reasonable interpretation is that the switch has to be on a wall of the room in which the outlet is. And the switch has to be where most adults can use it.
Keep it up and someone will say the T word.
I don't care if anyone says the "T" word....fact of the matter is, switches can be ANYWHERE - they is NO requirement that they be in the room they serve.

The least YOU can do is not infringe your erroneous interpretation of the code upon people and not try and be all high and mighty...so call me whatever you want, just know your thought is way out in left field.

Tell me where in the NEC it states the switch must be in room served?
 
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Old 04-18-06, 06:34 PM
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There is no requirement that the switch needs to be in the room that it serves, and sometimes it is not.

In the house I grew up in there are three switches just inside the front door, in the entry hallway. One switch serves the front porch light (logical placement). The second switch serves the entry hallway (also logical placement). The third switch serves the living room.

Now some might say that the living room switch is out of place, not in a logical place. Maybe, maybe not, it depends on your point of view. It sure was nice to be able to turn as light on in the living room when you came in the front door.

However, for most rooms, the logical placement for the light switch is just inside the door.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by racraft
There is no requirement that the switch needs to be in the room that it serves, and sometimes it is not.

.....

However, for most rooms, the logical placement for the light switch is just inside the door.
I agree with the logic...BUT, the question was:

Originally Posted by Hooter
I have been told that NEC requires a switch that controls an inside light at ALL entry doors..... If this is so, how far/close must it be to the door??
....
Therefore, the answer is -
There is no NEC requirement that the switch be placed in any specific location.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 07:11 PM
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After having read ALL of you posts, I haved decided to place a 27 gang box at my front door and another in my bedroom.....I will run all 3-way circuits and can turn on any lite in the hoiuse when I come home, and turn off all the lights when I go to bed.....To really make it convenient, I will place the 27 gang box by my bed at 24" above the floor......... (Pardon while I remove tongue from cheek) Thanks all for your help again
 
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Old 04-18-06, 07:17 PM
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You asked about a NEC requirement.
You were given the correct answer.
How you chose to apply that knowledge is entirely up to you.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Hooter
After having read ALL of you posts, I haved decided to place a 27 gang box at my front door and another in my bedroom.....I will run all 3-way circuits and can turn on any lite in the hoiuse when I come home, and turn off all the lights when I go to bed.....To really make it convenient, I will place the 27 gang box by my bed at 24" above the floor......... (Pardon while I remove tongue from cheek) Thanks all for your help again
Make sure that you use switches with pilot lights, so that you can tell by looking at the switch if the light is on or off.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 07:25 PM
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You are very rite Tony and I, as with all the other help I have received, am grateful for the time it takes to answer. I was only poking a lil fun at the level of absurdity that could be applied to the switch locations.........
 
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Old 04-18-06, 07:35 PM
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Don't get Tony mad. He's a hit man y'know.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Hooter
I was only poking a lil fun at the level of absurdity that could be applied to the switch locations.........
I couldn't agree more - it IS absurd...but it happens for whatever reason: poor design plan, changes, etc.


For a long time "Tony's 1st rule of electricity was: If there is a door, there will be a switch"....then, some nice person showed me the light LOL....

Amazing how we get these ideas in our heads and assume they are true.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 08:05 PM
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HEY............ You talkin' ta me?? LOL

Dont worry, I'll be back......With more novice "idiot" questions
 
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Old 04-18-06, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony Bagadonutz
The least YOU can do is not infringe your erroneous interpretation of the code upon people and not try and be all high and mighty...
Spare us!

> just know your thought is way out in left field.
Putting the switches in the basement is way out in left field.

> Tell me where in the NEC it states the switch must be in room served?

I don't believe anyone said that it does -- because it does not.

Perhaps you need to read more carefully.

For example, I stated, "a wall of the room".

That might sound too precise for you, but I specifically was not saying "inside the room".
Many rooms have the light switch outside the room.
But its placement has some functional connection to the location.

I am saying that putting the only switch for a habitable room on a different floor or inside some disconnected room, is not a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the Code 99.9% of the time. If you did so, the AHJ would have perfectly good reason to fail your installation.
 
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Old 04-19-06, 06:12 AM
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I have to say, Tony, that while Bolide's tone is normally thickly sardonic, in this thread you didn't allow him to rise to a simmer before cutting him off at the knees. That's a bad show.

Originally Posted by bolide
Perhaps you need to read more carefully.

For example, I stated, "a wall of the room".

That might sound too precise for you, but I specifically was not saying "inside the room".
Doesn't that depend on your definition of "was"?

I am saying that putting the only switch for a habitable room on a different floor or inside some disconnected room, is not a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the Code 99.9% of the time. If you did so, the AHJ would have perfectly good reason to fail your installation.
In this case, I believe Bolide is correct. Look at 210.70(A)(1), exception number two. This little exception gives the inspector all the leverage he needs to fail an inspection. What is a "customary wall switch location"? It's undefined. Therefore, ha ha, guess who defines it?

Is it vague? Yep. Then submit a proposal to fix it.
 
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Old 04-19-06, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
Don't get Tony mad. He's a hit man y'know.

yea, but it's usually donut shops that get "hit"!

***************

Originally Posted by bolide
blah blah
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountain
I have to say, Tony, that while Bolide's tone is normally thickly sardonic, in this thread you didn't allow him to rise to a simmer before cutting him off at the knees. That's a bad show.

LMAO..good one Rocky!

Next time I'll give Bloated more rope to hang himself on - for our amusement, of course.
 
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