20 space 40 curcuit breaker panel??????

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  #1  
Old 04-17-06, 11:11 PM
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20 space 40 curcuit breaker panel??????

i just bought a 200 amp 20 space 40 circuit (with main) panel for my home as i was counting the circuits and i need about 30 i know it says 40 circuits but i dont know how i would get them as there are only 20 places to put my breakers.I dont want to jury rig anything is there a special breaker that have to get to make one slot for two circuits?

this is what i have

1 bedroom 2circuit's one for outlets one for light

2 bedroom 2 circuit's one for outlets one for light

3 bedroom 2 circuit's one for outlets one for light

livingroom 2 circuit's one for outlets one for light

1 bathroom 2 circuit's one with gfi outlet one for light

2 bathroom 2 circuit's one with gfi one for light

kitchen 4 circuit's two for counter tops two for light

one for dishwasher and disposal ran to panel.

landryroom 2 circuit's one for outlets one for light

outside light outside outlets (gfi) 2 circuits

one circuit for ovrn 220

one circuit for waterheater 220

one circuit dryer 220

for all 2 circuit rooms i have ran12-2 in the room and 12-3 to breaker panel then to juction box in the attic to connect the two feeds for each room. thanks for the help and sorry long post.
 
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  #2  
Old 04-17-06, 11:49 PM
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> i just bought a 200 amp 20 space 40 circuit

A poor choice indeed.

> i need about 30

So you should have purchased at least a 30/40.
But I recommend a fullsize 40-space panel.

> i know it says 40 circuits but i dont know how i would get them
> as there are only 20 places to put my breakers.

So kick yourself. You saved a little money on the panel.
Now you need to buy expensive half-size breakers (slim/mini).
And you have to work in a really crowded panel because breakers are spaced only half as far apart.

And with AFCIs, you'll never get 40 breakers into the panel.

> I dont want to jury rig anything is there a special breaker that have to
> get to make one slot for two circuits?

You guessed it.


> 1 bedroom 2 circuits one for outlets one for light
> 2 bedroom 2 circuits one for outlets one for light
> 3 bedroom 2 circuits one for outlets one for light

No, you won't want to do this if you are using AFCIs.
Perhaps one breaker for lights and one for receptacles, or one for one BR and one for the other 2.


> 1 bathroom 2 circuits one with gfi outlet one for light
> 2 bathroom 2 circuits one with gfi one for light
Fine, but you could get away with fewer.
No real reason to use a separate breaker for the light. Instead use from either lights nearby or from the circuit feeding the receptacles.

If the bathrooms are near, one breaker could run their lights and the hallway.



> kitchen 4 circuits two for counter tops two for lights

Now you are skimping.
How about one for the lights and four or five for the receptacles?

> one for dishwasher and disposal ran to panel.
Maybe only one. Most people use two.
DW is usually a dedicated circuit.


> landryroom 2 circuits one for outlets one for light

Lights could share with other lights elsewhere.


> outside light outside outlets (gfi) 2 circuits

Okay. Lights could share with other lights elsewhere.


> one circuit for oven 220
> one circuit for waterheater 220
> one circuit dryer 220

These are all 240V.
I strongly recommend against even looking for minibreakers for these (four handles on one breaker; 240V uses the middle two). I hope they don't make them.


> for all 2 circuit rooms i ran 12-2 in the room and 12-3 to breaker panel
> then to junction box in the attic to connect the two feeds for each room.

Okay. No basement?


In short, you bought the wrong panel for the job. If you use it, it will be packed full when you are done or maybe won't even have enough space to finish.
You will throw good money after bad trying to get the right breakers for it.
You won't get more than 30 or 32 breakers into this panel ever.

Get a 40-space 200A panel and regular breakers.

The other choice is to get another panel just like the one you have now.
Put it somewhere close to many other circuits.
Subfeed it from the main panel.
Put about half your circuits in it and use regular breakers.
 
  #3  
Old 04-18-06, 06:33 AM
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Red face

I don't think your panel is too small, I think you ran too many circuits. A seperate circuit for each bedroom light? Every bedroom has a seperate plug circuit? Each bathroom has a dedicated circuit for the light? Good grief!

I'd use this panel but combine some of these circuits, there's no justification for a dedicated 20 Amp circuit to a light fixture.

You went overboard wiring this house. More is not necessesarilly better.
 
  #4  
Old 04-18-06, 06:57 AM
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I am leaning toward agreeing with Cheetah_Boxes, that you have more circuits than you need.

But you can correct this, without re-running the circuits.

If a circuit breaker will allow it, you can connect two circuits to the same breaker. If the breaker won;t allow it, you can do so inside the main panel, or if you prefer, you can do so in a junction box just outside the main panel.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by racraft
I am leaning toward agreeing with Cheetah_Boxes, that you have more circuits than you need.
I came up with about 21 spaces required which still fills out his panel.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 08:59 AM
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I'm not saying his panel isn't full, or that he should not have bought a larger one, I am merely saying that to proceed at this point he can double up appropriate circuits and then he won't need nearly the number of tandems as he would with all individual circuits.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 09:39 AM
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Well Thanks For the Info I Quess

Well im not changing my wiring i wired it this way so when my children or whoever mess's with the outlets in one of the rooms and the breaker flips the light stay's on.(now i might run the light circuits together to save some room If i do that I could run 5 lights on one and 5 on the other and that will give me 10 space open right?) As for buyin the 40 curicuit panel i thought it would house all my breakers AS IT SAY'S 40 CURCUIT'S.As for the kitchen i have five counter top outlets and one for dishwasher/disposal and one for lights witch i can run a nother home run for the disposal no big deal.Another idea i had was to get another small panel and house all the 240v stuff in it that would give me 6 more space's in the big panel. And thanks for the help/bashing/help/bashing just kiddin thanks for everything guys i need all the help i can get.

chad.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 10:14 AM
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> I could run 5 lights on one and 5 on the other and that will give me 10 spaces open right?

Not by my math. Are you talking minis or actual spaces?

Did you use AFCIs for all the bedrooms?


> IT SAYS 40 CIRCUITS.
It means 20 spaces. In your case 17 circuits.
I've seen these filled up and I think they are just ridiculous.
I think that even a 40-space panel is crowded with 40 circuits in it. And I don't have chubby fingers.
I just don't like poking through 60 wires to find the set I need.


> i have five countertop outlets
But only two circuits.
My point in that is not really enough for kitchen and dining receptacles.


> and one for dishwasher/disposal ... i can run another for the disposal

A 12/3 to the cabinet under the sink covers both with one run.

Can you move the 12/2 for another countertop receptacle?

> Another idea i had was to get another small panel and house all the 240v stuff
> in it that would give me 6 more spaces in the big panel.
4 more. You have to use two spaces to feed the extra panel.
 
  #9  
Old 04-18-06, 10:37 AM
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i love electric work

Movin the light circuits to two breakers one with five lights the other with five lights that would use two breakers? instead of 10 right
if that would work i wouldn't need a extra panel.


the kitchen is small and for the counter room (i have about 6 feet on one counter and 5 feet on the other)thats really all i need
as for the dining area i was thinking of putin maybe one outlet but i really dont need one just a light.
 
  #10  
Old 04-18-06, 10:48 AM
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Ten breakers down to two breakers saves eight breakers. In your earlier post you stated it would free up ten spaces.

Receptacles in the dining room need to be on small appliance circuits. These can be the same small appliance circuits that serve the kitchen counter, or can be additional small appliance circuits. You most likely need several receptacles in the dining room to comply with code.

Two small appliance circuits serving a house may or may not be enough. It depends on how you use them and on how they are spaced.

For example, if you try to run a microwave oven, a coffee maker and an electric frying pan on the same circuit you will probably trip the breaker. However, if you plug one of them into the other counter top circuit you most likely trip the breaker.

Make sure that you alternate the circuits on the counter top, so that you can shift an appliance to the other circuit easily.
 
  #11  
Old 04-18-06, 11:15 AM
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sound's good to me

I'll run a outlet in the dining room and i try and make the kitchen have three circuits. and alternate them no biggie the kitchen is in studs so that will be easy.

and if i can free up eight spaces that would help with cloggin up the box so i think ill do that too.
 
  #12  
Old 04-18-06, 04:35 PM
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I think I have it

front side house lights 5 lights #1 breaker
backside of house lights 4 lights #2 breaker
back bedroom outlets afci breaker #3
front bedroom outlets afci breaker #4
master bedroom outlets afci breaker #5
livingroom outlet's and out side outlets ran with 13-3 for two circuits breaker's #6,#7
master bathroom and other bathroom ran with 12-3 fro two circuits
#8,#9
laundry room #10 or i can add this to kitchen outlets if code allows.
240 dryer #11,#12
240 a/c #13,#14
240 oven #15,#16
240 water heater #17,#18
kitchen outlets 12-3 for two circuits #19,#20


I know this fills the box but that should'nt be an issue with everything cover, other than i plane on add. a panel for the garage later on but way later.Or i can buy the bigger panel.
 
  #13  
Old 04-18-06, 04:43 PM
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there is something funny going on with breaker numbers ,..,,


laundry room #10 or i can add this to kitchen outlets if code allows
no the laundry room repeticales circuit must be on it own 20 amp circuit can not add this to kitchen circuit the code disallow it.

240 dryer #11,#12
240 a/c #13,#14
240 oven #15,#16
240 water heater #17,#18

the way you number it you will only get 120 volt that all noting will run on 240 v unless you change the numbers like 11,13 for dryer then for central air use 14,16 the oven 15,17 the water heater 18,20 this is the only way you can run the breaker in correct way and you have to use the full size breaker to work with 240v volt devices [ yes it is double pole breaker ]

Merci, Marc
 
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Old 04-18-06, 04:53 PM
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Don't forget that the bedroom lights will also have to AFCI protected.
 
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Old 04-18-06, 05:09 PM
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Smile

Marc, Do not make assumptions about the breaker numbers. His numbering is probably correct, as long as it was done to his panel. It would be correct for my panel.

In regards to the laundry room, you cannot share the laundry room receptacles with anything else. The laundry room lights must be on a different circuit.

I don't see any mention of the dishwasher, refrigerator, disposal, etc. You want a dedicated circuit for the refrigerator. You should do two circuits for the disposal and dishwasher, although if you really wanted to you could get away with one.

You will have to put the smoke detectors on one of the circuits. If they need to be AFCI protected then put them on the AFCI circuit serving the bedroom lights. If they do not need to be AFCI protected then out them on the other light circuit.

You may want to reconsider your breaker placement. Some people recommend placing the 240 volt breakers nearest to the main breaker.
 
  #16  
Old 04-18-06, 05:28 PM
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> laundry room #10 or i can add this to kitchen outlets if code allows.

No. Small appliance circuits for kitchen/dining receptacles may not serve other areas or outlets.

Yes, you need more circuits to the kitchen.
You'll have to buy some minibreakers.

(I thought the numbering was just counting how many slots were used.)
 
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Old 04-18-06, 07:35 PM
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Marc, Do not make assumptions about the breaker numbers. His numbering is probably correct, as long as it was done to his panel. It would be correct for my panel.
ok Bob i can understand it but what i was refering to common numbering for useing 240 volt circuits

(I thought the numbering was just counting how many slots were used.)
genrally yes it is the same way with me but expect of pushmatic breaker they have little odd arrangement if you get my drift


i am not sure but if i am reading right the afci for bedroom circuit you can run 2 bedroom on one afci circuit and use the other afci for other bedroom circuit but becarefull with lighting circuit in bedroom the code is pretty picky on this one i think if i recall the codes right that the bedroom lighting circuit have to be on afci as well but as i saying here please check with your local code for latest issuse with this


merci, Marc
 
  #18  
Old 04-18-06, 07:46 PM
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well

I new I would forget something Im lucky to have a really nice city inspector he told me about the smoke detecors the other day. I thought the afci breakers were for outlets in the bedroom not lights. if so ill have to get them too.Looks like i'm head back to lowes to return this breaker panel and head to my local elactric shop to get a bigger one.and thank each and everyone of you for helping me with all this without yall and this site i would have been doomed.Your help is very much appreciated....chad
 
  #19  
Old 04-18-06, 10:45 PM
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WHile i believe you can never have enough room in your circuit panel, I tend to agree with cheetah. SOund like you have too many circuits...
You should do some amp loading to see how much your drawing...
Once circuit with one light/one outlet, thats just kind of overkill... and really limits you on breakers.
You could could almost split all your lighting onto two circuits and still be pretty safe...
But it's just not kocher to be running two circuits on one breaker either.

Im counting roughly 270 amps on your system, figuring 60 for the oven, 40 for the dryer, and 30 for dishwasher, which varies...
But you haven't included things like fridge, usually good to put on one circuit, ormicrowave (one of your counter top circuits), etc... ROoms with only one outlet? those have got to be small rooms...

So it;s hard to say without seeing those items.
But my guess is, you could shift some lighting and outelts, to make room for other items which dont' appear on the list.
 
  #20  
Old 04-18-06, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by builditmymself
I thought the afci breakers were for outlets in the bedroom not lights.
The problem is that most people think "outlet" means "receptacle." It does not. A receptacle is ONE TYPE of outlet. So is a light box in the ceiling. So is the 120V smoke detector in the room. So is the sconce on the wall. They are all types of outlets.
 
  #21  
Old 04-19-06, 09:09 AM
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is there

a way to post a drawing on here? i made arough drwaing of everything in paint but not sure if i can post it on here.
 
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