another circuit map for review

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  #1  
Old 04-19-06, 11:11 AM
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another circuit map for review

Staying with the trend of the board, I figured I might as well thru my circuit map up for review.

Existing panel is 60A fused service. New panel will be a 200A 40 space…yeah I know I was opting towards 150A, but live and learn. Thanks to all the advice on that BTW. All knob and tube will re removed or wire nutted and abandoned in the wall. All work will be permitted. I’ve done the actual load calculations, and based on those I ended up with the following map.

My major challenge will be to limit the number of home runs into the attic space. I don’t have a lot of room. I also have the option to go thru the crawl space, but don’t have a ton of room to get in there either. So what I’d like to do is to use 12 or 14/3 wire whenever possible, and sharing the neutral, either using two single pole or a double pole breaker (preferred). So here we go…

Double pole breaker
1. 20A Kitchen #1 12/3 GFCI Receptacle
Countertop R1 - Blender/Mixer
2. 20A Kitchen #2 12/3 GFCI Receptacle
Countertop R2 - Coffee Maker
Countertop R3 - Toaster

3. 20A Kitchen #3 12/2
Microwave

4. 20A Kitchen #4 12/2
Gas Oven

Double pole breaker
5. 20A Kitchen #5 12/3
Dishwasher
6. 20A Kitchen #6 12/3
Garbage Disposal

7. 20A Kitchen #7 12/2
Refrigerator

8. 20A Dining/Living Room 12/2
Receptacle #1
Receptacle #2
Receptacle #3
Receptacle #4
Receptacle #5 - Stereo

Double pole breaker
9. 20A Washer 12/3
Washer (GFCI Receptacle)
Sprinklers
10. 20A Dryer 12/3
Dryer (GFCI Receptacle)
Outdoor Light

Double pole breaker
11. 20A Garage Door Opener 12/3
Auto Garage Door (GFCI Receptacle)
12. 20A Garage Utility 12/3
Table Saw/other tools (GFCI Receptacle)

13. 20A Guest Bathroom 12/2
GFCI Receptacle #1 - Hair Dryer

14. 20A Bedroom #1/Master 12/2 AFCI Breaker
Bedroom #1 R1
Bedroom #1 R2
Bedroom #1 R3 - Lamp
Bedroom #1 R4 - Stereo
Master R1
Master R2 - Stereo
Master R3

15. 20A Hall 12/2
Hallway Receptacle #1 - Vacuum Cleaner
Receptacle #2
Family Room R #1
Outdoor Light

Double pole breaker
16. 20A Master Bath 12/3
GFCI Receptacle #1 - Hair Dryer
17. 20A Master Bath 12/3 GFCI
GFCI Receptacle #2 - Curling Iron

Double pole breaker
18. 20A Guest Bedroom 12/3 AFCI Breaker
Receptacle #4 - Computer Equipment
19. 20A Guest Bedroom 12/3 AFCI Breaker
Receptacle #1
Receptacle #2
Receptacle #3 - TV/VCR/DVD

20. 20A Family Room 12/2
Television/Stereo/DVD/Receiver

21. 15A Shed (partially 14awg) 14/2
Shed Lighting
Low Voltage Landscape Lights
Shed Receptacle - Circular Saw/other tools

22. 20A Hot Tub 12/3
Hot Tub

Double pole breaker
23. 20A Attic #1 12/3
Gas Furnace
24. 20A Attic #2 12/3
Attic Fan
Doorbell Transformer

Double pole breaker
25. 15A Lighting #1 14/3
Garage Lighting
Living Room Recessed
Dining Room Lighting
Kitchen Recessed
Attic Lighting
Front Door Lighting
26. 15A Lighting #2 14/3
Guest Bathroom Vanity
Guest Bathroom Fan
Hallway Lighting (3)
Family Room Lighting

Double pole breaker
27. 15A Lighting #3 14/3 AFCI Breaker
Smoke/CO detectors
Computer Room (ceiling fan/light)
Computer Room Closet Lighting
Bedroom #1 (ceiling fan/light)
Outdoor Light (computer room)
28. 15A Lighting #4 14/3 AFCI Breaker
Master Bedroom (ceiling fan/light)
Master Bedroom Closet Lighting
Master Bath Vanity
Master Bath Recessed
Master Bath Fan

That’s 28 total. I’d like to combine as much as possible, so please feel free to rip this list apart and reassemble as you see fit. I’d also like to pull a few spares into the attic and crawlspace for future use.

Some notes: I checked with my inspector and in my city, smokes and CO’s need to be AFCI protected. Shared neutral is also acceptable.

There are no 240V requirements in the home currently. The hot tub is 120V.

Circuit #21 needs to be 15A because the previous owner used 14awg to get out to the shed underground. It’s UF, but it’s 14 awg. That’s smart because the existing system is K&T, but I don’t think he even realized this based on his other work…

Questions:

Can the dining room and living room receptacles be on the same circuit, or does it have to be separated? I know you can put the dining room on the kitchen. That may be a better idea as there are only a few in the dining room and they are never used anyway.

I know it’s not advisable to combine the washer and dryer circuits. These are in the garage so I might as well put a line for each. But does each have to be dedicated to ONLY the washer or dryer?

For Circuit #27: Not sure if they even make a double pole AFCI breaker, but if not I could go with 2 single pole AFCI breakers.

Thanks all.
 

Last edited by fuente; 04-19-06 at 12:00 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-19-06, 11:25 AM
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8: Not allowed. The dining room receptacles must be on a small appliance circuit. This can be one of the kitchen counter small appliance circuits or a separate one, but no lights and no living room receptacles allowed.

9 and 10: Not allowed. You need a dedicated laundry circuit, 20 amp. It cannot serve lights or receptacles outside the laundry. I recommend the washer and dryer on one circuit an the light and sprinkler on the other circuit.

21. Make sure that you mark the panel well to indicate that there is 14 gage wire. You don't want someone to see the 12 gage wire connected to a 15 amp breaker and think they can safely change the breaker to 20 amp.
 
  #3  
Old 04-19-06, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by fuente
I’d also like to pull a few spares into the attic and crawlspace for future use.
I don't recommend this. Put in some conduits.


> Circuit #21 needs to be 15A because the previous owner used 14awg
> to get out to the shed underground. It’s UF, but it’s 14 awg.
Okay.

> That’s smart because the existing system is K&T, but I don’t
> think he even realized this based on his other work…
I don't realize it either. But yes, if you have #14 wire, it's "smart" to use a 15A breaker.


> Can the dining room and living room receptacles...?
No.


> I know you can put the dining room on the kitchen.
The dining room counts the same as the kitchen.


> I know it’s not advisable to combine the washer and dryer circuits.

Add up the loads.


> These are in the garage so I might as well put a line for each.
> But does each have to be dedicated to ONLY the washer or dryer?

No. The one for laundry area is for laundry functions only.


> Not sure if they even make a double-pole AFCI breaker
Probably.


> if not I could go with 2 single pole AFCI breakers.
But then you cannot share the neutral.
 
  #4  
Old 04-19-06, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by racraft
8: Not allowed. The dining room receptacles must be on a small appliance circuit. This can be one of the kitchen counter small appliance circuits or a separate one, but no lights and no living room receptacles allowed.
Thought so. I'll put the dining room on the one of the kitchen SR circuits. The living room receptacles will be it's own circuit.

Originally Posted by racraft
9 and 10: Not allowed. You need a dedicated laundry circuit, 20 amp. It cannot serve lights or receptacles outside the laundry. I recommend the washer and dryer on one circuit an the light and sprinkler on the other circuit.
Yep. Will do.

21.
Originally Posted by racraft
Make sure that you mark the panel well to indicate that there is 14 gage wire. You don't want someone to see the 12 gage wire connected to a 15 amp breaker and think they can safely change the breaker to 20 amp.
My bad there. That was a typo. I plan on running 14 awg from the panel as well. Thanks !!
 
  #5  
Old 04-19-06, 12:02 PM
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bolide, didn't think about that as far as not sharing neutrals in two single pole AFCI breakers. If I can't find a DP, I'll just run two circuits.

The plan was to run all of these home runs, spares included, thru conduit. Are you saying to run extra conduit and not the spares, and then in the future, pull new circuits thru the conduit?

Thats a good idea as well.

Thanks.
 
  #6  
Old 04-19-06, 01:52 PM
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> The plan was to run all of these home runs, spares included, thru conduit.

Are you using PVC or EMT? One pipe per cable?

> Are you saying to run extra conduit and not the spares,
> and then in the future, pull new circuits thru the conduit?
Yes. It's actually easier to figure out later.
I don't know why you would run conduit and then pull cables through it.
Probably I would have run the conduit to the junction boxes and used THHN inside.
 
  #7  
Old 04-19-06, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bolide
> The plan was to run all of these home runs, spares included, thru conduit.

Are you using PVC or EMT? One pipe per cable?

> Are you saying to run extra conduit and not the spares,
> and then in the future, pull new circuits thru the conduit?
Yes. It's actually easier to figure out later.
I don't know why you would run conduit and then pull cables through it.
Probably I would have run the conduit to the junction boxes and used THHN inside.
I was referring to conduit from the panel to the attic space. Once they are in the attic won't be using conduit of course.

The garage is unfinished. What I was also thinking is just running the homeruns thru the studs and then into the attic. They would be, based on the NEC requirement, not subject to mechanical damage, as they would be about 8 feet in the air.

Either way, this is the issue I am having with the number of homeruns. For the runs into the crawl space, I will most definatley need to use conduit (EMT) because they enter the space at ground level. But I only need a few homeruns, so 1 conduit run would be sufficient, either 3/4" or 1".

Thoughts? If I can absolutely get away from running EMT into the attic, and just run the romex thru the studs, that would be great. Another issue is how many runs can I fit thru one hole, and what is the maximum hole size thru a stud? Of course I could always split up the runs into 2-3 holes at various levels.
 
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Old 04-19-06, 03:13 PM
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> Once they are in the attic won't be using conduit of course.
I would have used conduit the whole way to the first junction box, of course.


> But I only need a few homeruns, so 1 conduit run would be sufficient, either 3/4" or 1".

How did you decide that you can put a few (three?) 12/3 NM cables in 1" EMT?


> Another issue is how many runs can I fit thru one hole,
> and what is the maximum hole size thru a stud?
Probably 1.4". You can add steel reinforcement.


> I could always split up the runs into 2-3 holes at various levels.
This is usually better. Don't forget the firestops.
 
  #9  
Old 04-19-06, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bolide
> Once they are in the attic won't be using conduit of course.
I would have used conduit the whole way to the first junction box, of course.
Of course. I would run the conduit to a j box then romex from there.



Originally Posted by bolide
> But I only need a few homeruns, so 1 conduit run would be sufficient, either 3/4" or 1".

How did you decide that you can put a few (three?) 12/3 NM cables in 1" EMT?
What I meant was that the number of runs going to the crawl space could be contained in conduit. How many runs and how many/size conduit will be based on the fill calculations.


Originally Posted by bolide
> Another issue is how many runs can I fit thru one hole,
> and what is the maximum hole size thru a stud?
Probably 1.4". You can add steel reinforcement.
so there is no max thru the 1.4" hole? As many as I can stuff in there?


Originally Posted by bolide
> I could always split up the runs into 2-3 holes at various levels.
This is usually better. Don't forget the firestops.
So let me pose this another way. If I can get from the panel to the attic, using romex all the way and going thru the studs, using the maximum hole diameter and firestops, etc..is it within code to not use any EMT at all and just run the romex to J-boxes in the attic, then out from there? What I'm trying to get at is can I not use EMT at all for runs where they are out of mechanical harm?
 
  #10  
Old 04-19-06, 03:55 PM
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> so there is no max thru the 1.4" hole?
> As many as I can stuff in there?

No, you may not stuff them.
But if they fit (without wedging, prying, squeezing, jamming, stretching), then you may put them through the same hole.

Must be protected from physical damage.
May not be damaged by the installer.

> is it within code to not use any EMT at all and just run the romex
> to J-boxes in the attic, then out from there?



It sounds like your wall is not an outside wall by which you get to the attic. So I don't see a problem.

> What I'm trying to get at is can I not use EMT at all for runs where they
> are out of mechanical harm?

Barring local rules, it sounds like that is the case.
 
  #11  
Old 04-19-06, 04:05 PM
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thanks bolide. I'll verify with the local inspector as well. You are correct in that the wall is not an outside wall; the panel will be in the garage, and the 'wall' to the attic is in said garage.

That's a relief not having to use conduit for the attic. Code requires it for the crawlspace, but 1 outta 2 ain't bad !!

BTW do you see any circuits that I could combine/change to minimize the number of runs?

Thanks again.
 
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