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changing 240 Volt rang outlet to a 240 volt electric dryer outlet.

changing 240 Volt rang outlet to a 240 volt electric dryer outlet.

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  #1  
Old 07-12-06, 09:23 PM
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changing 240 Volt rang outlet to a 240 volt electric dryer outlet.

OK new question

I plan to convert a 240 volt electric rang(oven) outlet in my back room to a 240/30 AMP electric dryer outlet. I know its a 3 wire outlet and are not allowed by code to put a 3 wire outlet in there with out changing it to a 4 wire.NOW I was told nothing ( but commen sense) stops me from doing so.So If I don't have 4 wires there could I go ahead and change it to a 3 wire outlet. I plain to but a voltage tester and 3 wire outlet about $20 for all the parts.Could I do this if the outlet checks out at 240V 30 amps.I now I should change it to a 4 wire outlet But I was told Im allowed to use what I have.
 
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  #2  
Old 07-12-06, 10:18 PM
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Circuits installed to code under a previous code are allowed to remain "as is" if not extended or relocated. Installing a new/different receptacle and breaker is neither so the circuit would be legal unless you have a local rule saying different.

Whether or not is a good idea is a whole 'nother matter. New appliances must be installed per the manufacturer's instructions and many will require a 4 wire circuit. There are a good many that will not run correctly with the 3 wire circuit even though the ground and neutral are connected in the main panel - No, I don't know why but have cured a good many issues (onboard computer) by upgrading a dryer or range circuit to 4 wire. I even carry a special extension cord to provide a temporary 4 wire circuit to verify this is or isn't a problem with an appliance.

There are millions of houses wired with the 3 wire circuit for ranges and ovens and the decision to change to one requiring a separate ground wasn't made lightly. It was made because the 3 wire circuit has safety issues.
 
  #3  
Old 07-13-06, 10:43 AM
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Lex, your current situation of the 50 amp outlet on the 30 amp circuit is NOT compliant to the code in effect at the time of installation. Changing to a 30 amp outlet would make the installation code-compliant to the code in use at the time of original installation.

If total compliance to the latest codes was a requirement then every single building in the country would be in violation of at least one code. With very few exceptions a building that was constructed in accordance with the codes in effect at the time of its construction are allowed to retain and maintain those features that would not be allowed by the latest codes.

Regarding 3-wire vs. 4-wire laundry facility outlets...Some laundry equipment IS made for connection to a 240 volt 3-wire grounded outlet as the equipment either does not have any 120 volt components OR it contains a transformer/power supply that reduces the 240 volts for internal usage.
 
  #4  
Old 07-13-06, 12:03 PM
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So If I don't have 4 wires there could I go ahead and change it to a 3 wire outlet
IMO... change to a 4 wire circuit...that may mean some replacement of sheetrock and other issues but it brings you up to current requirements and more compatible with modern
appliances.

For your information the existing circuit for 3 wire must meet these specifications in order to use it for what you suggest.

(1) 120/240 3 wire single phase supply or 4 wire 208Y120.

(2) Neutral (grounded conductor) cannot be smaller than 10 awg

(3) Neutral must be insulated or part of an SE type cable.

(4) Grounding contacts of any receptacles that are part of the equipment must be bonded to the equipment

The specific code is NEC 250.140

We need to know what the wire size is and what's the present breaker size.

Odd's are if it was orginally installed as a range circuit then the wire size will be big enough to work with a dryer which needs minimum 10 awg copper conductors.

The breaker very likely will need to be changed if it is larger than 30 amps...... it likely is a 40 or 50 amp breaker installed at present.

The existing range receptacle will need changing.

You need to find these things out and make your decisions about using the existing circuit appropriately.

Roger
 

Last edited by Roger; 07-13-06 at 12:24 PM.
  #5  
Old 07-13-06, 12:33 PM
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lexmarks567,

I am very tempted to combine this thread with the previous one, since this is the same question (more or less) that started the prior thread.

I have given you my input. Do not use this circuit. Run a new one if you insist on going with an electric dryer (which is a bad decision in the first place). My opinion is that since you must change the receptacle, you would be violating code.

Also, I don't remember if we determined the gage or colors of the wire.
 
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Old 07-13-06, 12:45 PM
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Well Than Im just going to leave it. Im not going to start pulling down sheet rock only to find out im in over my head I'll leave it to the pro's.Also just so you know we got the old dryer fixed.

see this thread here.

http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=269469
 
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Old 07-13-06, 02:07 PM
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Also, I don't remember if we determined the gage or colors of the wire
And just how do I do that.The wires in the fuse box are covered in a black insulation.with some bare copper and some siver wire(aluminem).
Rodger. The curcuit is a 30AMP curcuit controlled buy a 30AMP fuse.I pulled them both out and the washer and dryer witch are on the same circuit (120 Volt oultet gas and electric washer)use a total of 15.8 amps when run together.So what do I do pull the rang outlet off the wall and see what color wires it has.How hard would it be to install 4 wire circuit since the current circuit is 240VOLTS 30AMPS. I have a crawl space above my ceailing but you got to know were to stand or you will fall through the ceiling.There are no beams.Also I would need a step ladder to get up to the access hole.Im somewhat good with electricity but I want to Know WHAT im getting my self into.Or should I just call some one.I got the old dryer fixed But I would at lest like to have a working outlet in case someday down the line I need to get electric in case they don't have gas in stock at the rental place I can get electric untill they get it in stock.
 

Last edited by lexmarks567; 07-13-06 at 02:22 PM.
  #8  
Old 07-13-06, 02:29 PM
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I thought we established that the washer and dryer are NOT controlled by the same two 30 amp fuses.

IF THE WASHER AND DRYER ARE ON EITHER OF THESE 30 AMP FUSES, THEN YOU HAVE A FIRE HAZARD, AND YOU SHOULD REMOVE THE 30 AMP FUSES AND CORRECT THE PROBLEM IMMEDIATELY.

I strongly suggest that you call an electrician for a full evaluation of the electrical in this house and have him or her install you a proper dryer receptacle, wired properly.

It sounds very much like this house you bought is a fire waiting to happen.

To check the color of the wires you look at them. To check the gage of the wires you measure them or read the numbers off them, or compare them to wires of known sizes
 
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Old 07-13-06, 02:53 PM
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OK racraft let me explane this so we both can calm down.
I went to the fuse box and pulled out the 15AMP fuse that controlls the furnace.Than I turned on the washer and it did NOT fire up. so the 15AMP fuse that controlls the furnace also controlls the outlet the washer and GAS dryer are on OK.So thats right. so 1 if not both of the 2 30amp fuses controlls the electric rang outlet.Now I would like to make it up to the current code.So how hard would it be for me to do this.
Now you said to check the colars of the wires you look at them WELL there coverd in the fuse box with a black insulation and I don't want to strip that. So I will pull the rang outlet off the wall and see what color wires and what numbers and writing(if any) is left on the wire. Does this clears things up.If not than KINDLY Tell me what else I need to check before calling someone.
 

Last edited by lexmarks567; 07-14-06 at 02:19 AM.
  #10  
Old 07-13-06, 07:29 PM
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Somewhere the external insulation has been removed. Either in the fuses panel right at the fuses, or in the dryer receptacle itself.

Or, if you absolutely have to, disconnect the wire at either end (the receptacle end will be safer, but only after you remove the fuses).
 
  #11  
Old 07-13-06, 09:31 PM
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Ok I have read the other thread so I understand things a lot better. The range circuit in your photo appears to be an se cable, probably aluminum wire. It most likely is either 8 awg or 6 awg. I'm not sure which. The wire size will not be on the black insulation but on the gray outer jacket. You may not be able to see enough of that jacket to tell.
There is a way to tell however with se aluminum. If it is 8 awg it will be a solid aluminum wire for the conductors with 8 strands of the bare neutral wrapped around the conductors. If it is 6 awg it will be stranded and have 7 strands. the bare neutral wrapped around the conductors will have 12 strands in most cases. At anyrate if the conductors are stranded it is at least 6 awg.

If it is copper then things are not the same. You will have 7 strands for both 8 and 6 awg
The bare neutral/ground will have 8 strands for 8 awg or 12 strands for 6 awg.
 

Last edited by Roger; 07-13-06 at 09:49 PM.
  #12  
Old 07-17-06, 10:58 PM
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Before I pull the outlet off the wall were are the screws that hold it in place I don't see any. There is one hole between the 2 slots at the top and the 1 slot at the bottom.Once I figure this out I can pull it off and see what I have to work with.And I can post a pick of the wires.
 
  #13  
Old 07-17-06, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger
Ok I have read the other thread so I understand things a lot better. The range circuit in your photo appears to be an se cable, probably aluminum wire.
Look closely at the picture. The wires on the circuit in question (the 30-amp 240 volt dryer (range) circuit are soldered to lugs then attached to the screw connections of the individual fuseholders. The soldered lugs pretty much support that this is copper wire and not aluminum.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h7...r/DCP_1239.jpg
 
  #14  
Old 07-18-06, 06:34 AM
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Well only thing I can say is that I have never seen SE type U with copper conductors and an aluminum neutral....have you? If such a product is made then I concede that those are copper conductors most likely, however my reply that they are probably aluminum is based on my experience installing this stuff in the field. My electrical supply doesnt carry copper se(u) but it can order copper se(r). I did notice the lugs but didnt consider the conductors to be copper based on the aluminum neutral. I dont purport to know every product out there so I could be wrong about the conductors but it would be odd in my opinion to have copper and aluminum in a se cable.

Roger
 
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Old 07-18-06, 12:48 PM
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Where are the screws located to remove the outlet
 
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Old 07-18-06, 04:44 PM
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Does anybody know where the screws are that hold it to the wall I can't see any.
 
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Old 07-18-06, 04:56 PM
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Post a pic if you can lexmark. It would help, I'm sure.



Is this recep protruding from the wall? If it is, look around the sides of the protrusion.
 
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Old 07-18-06, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by nap
Post a pic if you can lexmark. It would help, I'm sure.



Is this recep protruding from the wall? If it is, look around the sides of the protrusion.
Yes its a wall mount. heres a pic



 
  #19  
Old 07-18-06, 05:06 PM
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Remove the cover. The screws holding it to the wall are underneath.
 
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Old 07-20-06, 10:12 AM
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OK finally got around to it. You did not tell me there was a hidden screw that holds the cover on I thought it just snapped on.Took me 5 minutes to figure that out ANYWAY heres what I found. There are 3 wires going into the outlet ALL aluminum. 2 are insulated 1 wire is BARE aluminum. Heres some pics there a little fuzzy but you can see what I have.





What do you think.
 
  #21  
Old 07-20-06, 10:29 AM
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I think that you should stop trying to figure out a way to use this cable and replace it.
 
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Old 07-20-06, 10:35 AM
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OK To replace it thats a little over my head. How much would a job like that run to replace the outlet and cable from the box to the outlet.
 
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Old 07-20-06, 10:53 AM
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Well now that I think about it I would like to at least try it.How hard would it be for me to replace this to a 4 wire cable.Whats involved.
 
  #24  
Old 07-20-06, 02:17 PM
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Lex, not meaning to be condesending but those might be "tinned" copper conductors. I state this because the two "hot" wires in the fuse panel have lugs soldered onto the conductors.

I suggest that you remove the fuses completely and then try to scrape the bare conductors at the outlet to see if they are really copper under a thin coating of tin.


As for replacing the cable it is probably impossible to just pull it out and pull in a new four-conductor cable. You will most likely need to run the new cable from the existing fuse box either down under the house or up through your attic "crawl" space. It may involve cutting into some walls or you may need to run conduit. My personal thought would be that if you have no use for the dryer outlet to just abandon the cable in place by completely removing it from your fuse box and cutting it off as far from the fuse box as possible and then also cutting it at the outlet and shoving the end back into the wall. Patch the wall and forget it. Also it will be necessary to add a note in the fuse box that the bottom two fuses are spares, you will need to keep fuses screwed in to prevent the hazard of open (energized) contacts.
 
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Old 07-20-06, 05:01 PM
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I forgot about that. I will try it and post back when I get a chance.

Originally Posted by furd
Lex, not meaning to be condesending but those might be "tinned" copper conductors. I state this because the two "hot" wires in the fuse panel have lugs soldered onto the conductors.

I suggest that you remove the fuses completely and then try to scrape the bare conductors at the outlet to see if they are really copper under a thin coating of tin.


As for replacing the cable it is probably impossible to just pull it out and pull in a new four-conductor cable. You will most likely need to run the new cable from the existing fuse box either down under the house or up through your attic "crawl" space. It may involve cutting into some walls or you may need to run conduit. My personal thought would be that if you have no use for the dryer outlet to just abandon the cable in place by completely removing it from your fuse box and cutting it off as far from the fuse box as possible and then also cutting it at the outlet and shoving the end back into the wall. Patch the wall and forget it. Also it will be necessary to add a note in the fuse box that the bottom two fuses are spares, you will need to keep fuses screwed in to prevent the hazard of open (energized) contacts.
 
  #26  
Old 07-20-06, 07:27 PM
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I totally agree with Bob to replace this cable. Yes, it will be some work.... might even be a lot of work. It is certainly something you can do yourself. Whether it is aluminum or copper is irrelevant and I apologize for making it an issue.
The fact is it is a 3 wire cable... you will be much happier and safer with a modern four wire cable that will allow you to ground the frame without using the neutral for this purpose as in a 3 wire cable like you have now. IMO manufacturers should in cooperation with the NFPA and other code writing authorities require new replacement appliances to be only 4 wire and that 3 wire existing branch circuits for dryers and ranges be brought up to present code when encountered while replacing old appliances.

And please find out if that cable has al or cu conductors so we can put that issue to rest....


BTW..... did I forget to tell you there is a single kinda hard to see screw that holds the receptacle cover on?......

Roger
 
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Old 07-20-06, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger

BTW..... did I forget to tell you there is a single kinda hard to see screw that holds the receptacle cover on?......

Roger
Yes you did and it took me 5 minutes to figure that out

Ok I will check the wires in the morning and see if it really is AL or CO.But I think its AL cause the box said you can use either copper or AL wire.
 
  #28  
Old 07-21-06, 04:20 AM
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I doubt very much the existing wiring in place is aluminum. I suspect that it is likely tinned copper. But again, it does not matter. It should be replaced.
 
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Old 07-21-06, 11:24 AM
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Its AL I pulled one of the wires off the outlet and scraped with a jigsaw blade and nothing came off.
 
  #30  
Old 07-21-06, 12:53 PM
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Ok lets forget the copper vs aluminum we are just wasting your time and ours. If you really want to be positive when you get the old cable out or at least expose enough of it read the writing on the outer gray sheath it will shed light on the mystery.

See if there is a route you can take that limits damage to existing walls...it may be completely different than the route the existing cable takes.

At any rate there isnt anyway we can tell you everything you need to know.

Do this project yourself it will just take some time. Get a couple friends or family members to help.

Can you tell us a little about the way your house is laid out in relation to the fuse panel and where you have to go to get to the receptacle location? Like do you have a crawl space, is the house a ranch with basement, is there an attic that will let you get overhead of the receptacle location, what level of the house is the panel located... that sorta information. Then maybe we can give you some tips on how get your new cable installed.

Your going to need 10/3 with ground cable (4 wires). NM-B type is fine. Be sure you buy enough cable for your chosen route dont cut it too short, it's much better to be too long. You will need a 14-30P dryer cord and a 14-30R dryer receptacle. I recommend a flush mount receptacle but a surface mount like you have now is fine. You may want to change the location of the mounting point though.

Do you understand where all the wires connect in the fuse box and receptacle?

You need to make the conversion from 3 wire to 4 wire on the dryer terminal block. This link will help you with that.

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switc...ryer/index.htm

Keep asking questions

Good luck

Roger
 
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Old 07-21-06, 01:14 PM
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OK the insulation is black on each wire.The sheave must be inside the wall.I outlet is located about 10-15 feet from the box.The house is a ranch and we do not have a basement or crawl space under the house.We have a crawl space above the ceailing but you HAVE to know were to walk or you will fall through the ceailing and you need a ladder to access it.The access port is in my closet.What I thinking of doing is seeing if I can put in a new cable but let the contractor wire it for power at the fuse box I think that would be the right way to go.A way I could wire it is to go up through the top of the fuse box(thats where the wires go now) than run along the ceiling beams around a corner along the wall beams and down to the outlet.Would that work.If so I could have a contractor come out and run it that way so there would be no damage to the walls.What do you think of that I want to be safe doing this.I want to do it the right way. Do any of you see any problems with that.If let me know so I can figure out how to do it correctly and up to code.
 
  #32  
Old 07-21-06, 07:58 PM
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I dont suppose you could take some pictures again of what you are wanting to do. I'm understanding you to say you want to run the cable exposed on the ceiling and wall??

And are you also saying you only have 10 or 15 feet to run from the panel to the receptacle?

Roger
 
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Old 07-21-06, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lexmarks567
OK new question

I plan to convert a 240 volt electric rang(oven) outlet in my back room to a 240/30 AMP electric dryer outlet. I know its a 3 wire outlet and are not allowed by code to put a 3 wire outlet in there with out changing it to a 4 wire.NOW I was told nothing ( but commen sense) stops me from doing so.So If I don't have 4 wires there could I go ahead and change it to a 3 wire outlet. I plain to but a voltage tester and 3 wire outlet about $20 for all the parts.Could I do this if the outlet checks out at 240V 30 amps.I now I should change it to a 4 wire outlet But I was told Im allowed to use what I have.
WHY DO YOU KEEP ASKING?
Have you no conscience!
I hope this is all done in YOUR house, And not in others!
Sorry, somthing about the EXPLODING desk top, and the questions.. Scares me.
 
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Old 07-21-06, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger
I dont suppose you could take some pictures again of what you are wanting to do. I'm understanding you to say you want to run the cable exposed on the ceiling and wall??

And are you also saying you only have 10 or 15 feet to run from the panel to the receptacle?

Roger
The cable wold go from the panel up through the wall and into the crawl space run along the beams that support the wall (it would run along wood all the way)then go down through the wall and down to the new oulet just like a regular outlet cable is run.I want do it most of the work like running the cable but will have a pro come out and hook it up for power and make any changes so the pro and the inspecter would have the final word. I plan to run my idea buy a contractor and see what he says about it.
 

Last edited by lexmarks567; 07-30-06 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 07-21-06, 08:51 PM
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Im going to take RACRAFTS advice witch is what I should have done in the first place. Im going to call a pro to come out and install the 4 wire outlet.Now about how much does a job like that run (ball park figure).
 

Last edited by lexmarks567; 07-21-06 at 09:08 PM.
  #36  
Old 07-23-06, 12:38 AM
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It sounds to me like your plan is ok on the cable routing. I just misunderstood you. I still think you can do this yourself.

Roger
 
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Old 07-23-06, 03:24 PM
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Thanks rodger But Im going to leave it to the pros. That crawl space is not safe if you don't know were to walk. One wrong move and you will fall through the ceailing.Also I would need a ladder to get up there and getting back down would be a tricky problem.
 
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Old 07-23-06, 09:43 PM
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No problem, hey I know you've asked how much this would cost a few times and havent received any responces. It just isnt possible to give you that information without seeing what the work would involve as to time and labor and materials. Get the estimates and see if that works out if not then go back to plan A....which is do it yourself.....
 
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