Kitchen Remodeling - circuit requirements

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  #1  
Old 08-23-06, 10:43 AM
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Kitchen Remodeling - circuit requirements

Hi All-

As you may be aware from my other posts, I am in a midst of a small remodeling project (not involving the kitchen just yet) so I have opened up some walls.

I would like to run some new electrical wires through this wall cavity for the kitchen remodeling in the near future and would like some feedback from ya:

Old kitchen setup
==============
12x18 ft room
1 gas oven
1 cooktop (w electric ignition)
5 light fitxures (60 watt each)
6 outlets
1 dishwasher
2 toaster ovens
1 microwave oven
1 refridgerator

New kitchen setup
==============
12x18 ft room
2 gas ovens
1 cooktop range (w electric ignition)
7 recessed lighting
8 outlets
2 dishwashers
1 toaster oven
1 microwave oven
1 refridgerator

I plan on running three, 12/2 wires to service the electrical needs in the future. Would that be enough or should I run four wires?

TIA

Kevin
 
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  #2  
Old 08-23-06, 11:03 AM
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Location: Arlington
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Your going to need (2) seperate small appliance circuits. The gas ovens can be run off these. If your cooktop is gas, you can place this on the other small app. circuit. If it's electric forget it, it'll need a designated circuit.

Your lights will need to be on a seperate circuit, so there are your 3 wires gone.

You can place your frig on one of the small appliance circuits if it is the first outlet then the GFCI's follow, but it is recommended to be on it's own designated circuit.

You may be able to combine the dishwashers on the same circuit. Someone else will need to chime in if you can.

Bottom line is I think you're going to need a lot more wire than (3) 12/2.
 
  #3  
Old 08-23-06, 11:05 AM
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Lets start. How did ya figure 8 recepticles? In electric speak, an outlet is anything that uses electricity. I know what you really meant was recepticle.

You need two or more 20 amp small appliance circuits feeding recepticle circuits for the counter top. You can use these circuits to feed some other stuff that other stuff is in the kitchen or dining room.

Lets chew on your list.

12x18 ft room
2 gas ovens..............................Take from any of the counter top circuits.
1 cooktop range (w electric ignition)Take from any of the counter top circuits.
7 recessed lighting ..........Not allowed to be on any of the SA circuits.
8 outlets......................How did you come up with this number?
2 dishwashers............ 1 each 15 amp circuit.
1 toaster oven...............plugs into the counter top recs.
1 microwave oven..........plugs into the counter top recs.
1 refridgerator...............Take from any of the counter top circuits or put on a circuit of its own. I prefer the latter.
 
  #4  
Old 08-23-06, 11:28 AM
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The microwave will need a dedicated 20A circuit if it is a built-in model such as an over-the-range. You didn't list a disposal, but it is typically installed with a dishwasher and may require a dedicated circuit depending on the size.
 
  #5  
Old 08-23-06, 11:33 AM
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So basically I need:

* Two, 20 amp circuits for small appliance (and countertop recepticles)

* One, 15 or 20 amp circuit dedicated for 7 recessed lights

* Two, 15 amp circuits for two dishwashers

* One, 15 amp circuit for the refrigerator

What does everyone think about this setup?

No problem in terms of the panel space, but I have a limited space to route cables (going though the sill plate).

Since I doubt I will run 2 dishwashers at the same time, so what do you think about putting both of them on a single, 20 amp circuit?

Can you suggest other ways to "consolidate" the number of cables (without exceeding 12/2 cable size)?
 
  #6  
Old 08-23-06, 11:33 AM
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Are you going to have a wate disposal in the sink? If so, then that often requires its own circuit as well. Sometimes this can be the same circuit as one of the dishwashers, but check to see if either unit specifies that it should be on its own circuit, and then look at the amps that they draw. As an example, in a remodel I'm working on, my dishwasher has a motor that draws 6A, and a heater that draws 6.5A. My waste disposal draws 7A, so if all these were on at the same time, we're talking 19.5A - pretty heavy for a 20A circuit, so I'm going to put the disposal on its own circuit. I believe that some local codes require disposals to be on a separate circuit.

Also, consider if you might ever want to put in an electric oven or cooktop at any point. If so, you might want to put in a 240V / 50A circuit now.

Some people recommend having a dedicated microwave circuit as well.

When considering countertop receptacles, note that there are minimum requirements on how many receptcacles you need for a given amount of counter space.

If you don't have one already, get a DIY electrical book. Turn to the section on kitchen rewiring and read it carefully. Kitchens have many special requirements. My impression is that few kitchens can get away with fewer than about 7 circuits - one of these might be a 240V circuit as well.

Cheers,

Simon
 
  #7  
Old 08-23-06, 11:38 AM
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What does everyone think about this setup?

Seems reasonable, but you haven't allowed for waste disposal, electric oven/cooktop etc.



Since I doubt I will run 2 dishwashers at the same time, so what do you think about putting both of them on a single, 20 amp circuit?

I doubt that codes allow this, but I don't know for sure. If you put them on the same circuit it seems unlikely that you'll ever be able to run them together without tripping the breakers. Check the rating labels.



Can you suggest other ways to "consolidate" the number of cables (without exceeding 12/2 cable size)?

It's often possible to run the two small applicance circuits in a multiwire setup using a single 3-wire cable and a 2-pole breaker. See books for details.


Cheers,

Sy
 
  #8  
Old 08-23-06, 11:49 AM
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tap the lights from the existing circuit feeding the lights in the next room over.
 
  #9  
Old 08-23-06, 12:06 PM
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I would not run any 15 amp circuits, except perhaps for lights. I would make them all 20 amp circuits.

I would designate a 20 amp circuit just for the microiweave, even if it is a counter top model. If I wasn't exactly sure where I was going to put it I would run more than two small appliance circuits, so that I could isolate it as much as possible.
 
  #10  
Old 08-23-06, 12:25 PM
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I have a full circuit map I created back in January. I will post it along with a table describing loads for all circuits tonight so that you can comment on it further.

Thanks!

Kevin
 
  #11  
Old 08-24-06, 04:23 AM
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Here is my current setup:

http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=buxtonkitchenelecdm2.jpg

Although most circuits are rated at 20 amps, these are tapped throughout the house. In addition, current lighting circuit is fairly overloaded (heavily used like the garage door openers, etc.)

Based on the fact that small appliance circuits now need to be on dedicated circuits, I think I will do the following:

* ADD two, 20 amp circuits for the small appliances (incl. countertop recepticles)

* ADD one, 20 amp circuit dedicated for 7 recessed lights

* ADD one, 20 amp circuit for the first dishwasher

* RE-USE, #8 20 amp circuit for the second dishwasher

* ADD one, 20 amp circuit for the refrigerator

In addition to the above, I have 2 more questions:

Q1:

Are there any rules about using junction boxes between the panel to end recepticles? Not knowing exactly where the circuits will end up, I just want to run some 70-100 ft cables for now so I can proceed with other remodeling project first. I may have to use junction boxes to possibly "extend" the cable to where it needs to go.

Q2:
As I look to "decommission" the old electric cables, can I just wire-nut them and place them in the same junction box or should I plan to remove them? The latter would be ideal but I am not sure if I will have full access to all cable end points...

Any thoughts/comments?

Thanks!

Kevin

PS. How the heck do I insert hyperlinks for images? I used to be able to click on the "chain" icon to insert it but now I can;t find it...
 
  #12  
Old 08-24-06, 04:33 AM
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You can have as many junction boxes as you want, provided that the junction boxes remain permanently accessible. This means that they cannot be hidden in walls. However, I do not recommend that you use many of them, or even any unless absolutely necessary. Each and every connection of a circuit is a potential failure point. Instead of making runs and terminating them, just leave enough cable coiled up and not connected. When you need to use it, run it to the termination point.

Yes, this may result in using more cable than you absolutelyh need, but it's a better more professional and more sound installation.


It is best if you remove cables that are no longer used, or at least remove the sections of the cable that are exposed. At the very least the ends of the cables should be pushed out of the junction boxes, and the cables abandoned.

Make certain that both ends of each cable are handled the same way. Either push both ends out of the boxes or leave both ends in the boxes. Remember that leaving the ends in the boxes adds to box fill.
 
  #13  
Old 08-24-06, 04:42 AM
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Thanks racraft.

Any comments on the proposed circuit configuration? I am off today and am looking to run the wires so that I can put up my sheetrock this morning.....
 
  #14  
Old 08-24-06, 05:03 AM
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I think you are fine, with perhaps one exception. As I stated in my earlier post, if you know where the microwave will be located I would dedicate a circuit for it. If it may move or you aren't sure ehere it will be, then I would seriously consider a third circuit for the counter top.

When it comes to kitchens, bathrooms and computers, I prefer to have dedicated circuits, or at the the very least circuits that are less prone to overloading.

My first house had two 20 amp circuits in the kitchen, but the way my wife preferred the kitchen to be set up would not work. The mirowave, the toaster and the electric frying pan ended up on the same circuit, tripping the breaker if they were all on. She had to move the frying pan or the coffee maker, and with limited counter top space she was not happy.

My point is this: Allow for flexibility in your design. In my present kitchen, the receptacles are close enough so that you can plug a counter top appliance into either circuit. The microwave is not an issue, as it is built in and on a dedicated circuit.
 
  #15  
Old 08-24-06, 05:10 AM
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Excellent. I will add another circuit although those 12/2 cables aren't cheap!

But hey, we need to keep our spouses happy, right?

Thanks again. Off I go to Home Depot (yet again, sigh....)

Kevin
 
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