anyone familiar with telematique relay? need hlp

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  #1  
Old 08-29-06, 03:14 AM
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anyone familiar with telematique relay? need hlp

I have a telemaqtique relay i'd like to understand how to use. The model is LRD14 (034681). Can't for the life of me figure out the abbreviated schematics that are on the cardboard box container.

It's for 7 -10 amps. I have it set to 8 point something, say 8.2 or so. That's the easy part. it's the other gizmos i don;t understand or how to wire it. TIA
 
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Old 08-29-06, 04:24 AM
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If I'm not mistaken...that's a motor overload relay. You can combine it with a (telemechanique) plug-in "power relay" and create a motor starter.
This relay is used to energize the coil on the power relay so that if the motor gets overloaded (hot) the overload relay will open and stop the motor. It does this by cutting the power to the main relay (magnetic) coil, thus causing it to open.
The same overload relay can be used for several different sized motors..depending on motor voltage/current and the required "power relay". The power relay is the one that actually carries the motor current. The overload relay senses (thermally) the motor current and if it exceeds the setting (for a period of time or a great amount) it opens and stops the motor.
You can do a web search for telemechanique and get info.
hope this helps
steve
Thought about it for a minute....The power relay that I mentioned is actually a "power cube" and doesn't have a magnetic solenoid. It is closed by the magnetic solenoid in the overload relay, and held closed (motor running) as long as the overload relay is energized and not tripped (opened on overload).
 

Last edited by DIYaddict; 08-29-06 at 06:30 AM. Reason: removed quote as it's unnecessary to quote the entire post that's directly above yours
  #3  
Old 08-29-06, 04:35 AM
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thx. what i don't understand is the wiring of this relay. it has a bank of 4 places for wires (marked 97NO 98NO and 95NC 96NC) and another place for three wires. (marked 2T1, 4T2 and 6T3).

no idea about this nomenclature. any help would be helpful.
 
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Old 08-29-06, 06:20 AM
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I believe...so don't hold me to this...that the numbers that you gave mean:


T1, T2 and T3 are the power terminals out to the motor.
This is apparently a overload relay for a 3 phase motor.
The "T" on a motor relay usually indicates that it's the output terminal to the motor, so I'm assuming that the other part of the complete motor starter (the "power cube") would have the power input terminals which should be marked P1, P2, P3.
97NO and 98NO is a normally open contact. That means that there is no continuity between terminals 97 & 98 when the relay solenoid is not energized. If you energize the solenoid this closes the contact between 97 & 98 and makes a electrical path (circuit) between them. 95 & 96 are work opposite... contacts closed when the solenoid is not energized...open when energized.
The NO contacts are normally used to provide a "holding" circuit for the relay solenoid if a momentary contact pushbutton is used to start the motor. The control circuit is wired so that when the pushbutton is pressed the overload relay solenoid is momentarily energized. When solenoid energizes, the auxiliary NO contacts close. The control circuit is wired so that power (if single phase) for the overload relay solenoid flows (series) from the remote power source, thru the overload contacts, thru these auxiliary contacts and to ground and and thus maintains power on the relay solenoid, holding it on. As long as the circuit remains continuous and nothing breaks it (overload contact opening, contacts on a stop button, process control contact, power failure, etc.) the overload solenoid will remain energized. As this happens the main power contacts (P1-T1, P2-T2, P3-T3 on a complete unit) are closed mechanically by the action of the overload solenoid and the motor starts. As long as power continues to flow through the control circuit, the solenoid will remain energized and the motor will continue to run. This control circuit is wired in series with the (internal)overload contacts, thus if the overload opens it breaks the circuit holding the relay solenoid, the relay "drops" out and the motor stops. It will remain off until someone pushes the button again, then the cycle repeats itself. The pushbutton circuit is usually wired from a seperate single phase circuit (although 2 legs of a 3 phase circuit are sometimes used). The voltage of the control circuit depends on the voltage rating of the solenoid coil.
The overload that you have should have a set of terminals for the solenoid coil, either that or they are supplied with the required "power contacts cube".
Again, most of what I describe is simple relay logic that is used to start and start a electric motor using a external overload.
It may not apply to your situation.
hope this helps
 

Last edited by DIYaddict; 08-29-06 at 06:31 AM. Reason: removed quote as it's unnecessary to quote the entire post that's directly above yours
  #5  
Old 08-29-06, 09:02 AM
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The name is Telemechanique. This is an overload relay for an IEC motor starter. It is not a relay in the typical definition of the word. This device measures the amount of current flowing through the device from the three Wire leads to the "T" terminals on the bottom side of the device. It is designed to protect the three phase motor connected to it from an extended overload condition which could damage the motor. In an overload condition, the motor pulls more than the normal amount of current, the overload relay senses that and trips an internal set of contacts, which shuts off the motor. The contacts must then be manualy reset by a pushbutton (usually) for the motor to turn back on. The "9X" terminals are status contacts for the tripped status of the overload. you would wire the NC contacts in series with the coil of the motor starter (typically hight voltage, high current specialized relay)to prevent the motor from turning back on immediately on reset of the overload. The NO contact is for status back to a supervisory system if desired. The adjustment you were changing is for the current sensitivity trip point of the device.
If you post back with more information on what you are trying to accomplish, I can help more.
 
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Old 08-29-06, 09:24 AM
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I am in Spain. this is a single phase 1.5 HP water pump (220V) using a condenser. I just wish to protect the motor of the pump, rated at 8.4 amps (max i imagine) The tech guy said they normally will protect it at 90% of max capacity, which would be 7.6 amps, but he said in practise up to 8.2 amps would be ok. He told me to buy a relay and set it to 8.2 amps. I went to my local shop and purchased this one fromm a sales person who had no idea althougbh it would probably be possible to find out locally how to use it. i'm trying to figure out how to wire it. Apart from my descrition of the wiring, it has these three copper pins at the back. Using my ohmeter, i find they are in sinc with T1 T2 and T3, which means they'll be live... wondering what they are... any help appreciated.
 
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Old 08-29-06, 11:08 AM
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if there is no motor starter to connect the overload to, then you need a way to terminate the wiring to the "copper pins". Go and get a 7B106 Terminal Block. The Overload relay will mount to the terminal block and provide you with screw terminals to make your connections to the "copper pins". Mount the terminal block, then connect the overload. Wire the hot wire to L1, connection on the "pin" side of the overload. Then run a wire from the T1 connection on the bottom of the overload to the L2 connection on the top. Wire the hot side of the pump to T2. Wire the neutral connection to L3 and the neutral of the pump to T3. 95,96,97,98 would only be used if the pump is on some sort of motor starter relay or if you want an annunciation of the overload tripping. Then they can be used to prevent the restart of the motor on reset of the tripped overload. But I think that this is not your case. As for the setting, I would set it at 8.4A or whatever the FLA of the motor is. Setting the overload as the tech guy suggested might lead to many nuscince trips.
 
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Old 08-29-06, 11:21 AM
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not sure what is meant by "motor starter". I start the pump using a 16 amp thermic switch. Which then feeds both condenser and pump notor.
 
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Old 08-29-06, 11:29 AM
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there is no motor starter in your situation. A motor starter is basically a relay that specializes in starting high current, high voltage motor loads. In you situation, the switch is controlling the motor, not a starter. So unless you wish to have some sort of bell or light go on when the overload trips, you can ignore the 9X series terminals.
 
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Old 09-01-06, 03:43 PM
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Ok guys, I talked with a telemecanique rep today. What he told me is that the telemecanique overload does NOT break the power circuit. It must be utilized with a magnetic starter (relay) to provide the desired protection.

OP; real simple test. run one of the motors through the overload and push the test button. If it does break the power circuit, your ok and the Telemecanique guy was wrong. If he is right though, you will need to utilize a relay (contactor) that has a magnetic coil to activate it. The control circuit would then be fed through the N/C contacts on the overload which would disengage the contactor when the overload trips.
 
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Old 09-01-06, 06:58 PM
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Duh!!! I didn't even remember that the overload wouldn't break the power lines. I only use them in conjunction with motor starters, so I didn't think of that angle. He can get a very small 220 VAC coil motor starter and tap off of L1 for his control power, through the overload's aux contacts to coil then to common. I don't remember off of the top of my head how the contacts are labled, in the armed or tripped condition. I would probably use the NC contacts as my first attempt. By doing this, he wouldn't need the other mounting plate, the motor starter becomes the mounting plate. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks Nap for pointing out my oversight.
 
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Old 09-01-06, 07:09 PM
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I was going to post that the other day when this was getting discussed but I was not sure. I have been told by others that there are some o'loads that will break the power leads. I had a chance to speak directly to a Tele rep today and asked him to be sure.

A funny side note. On an Allen Bradley iec style motor overload, when utilizing the "test" button, both of the aux contacts to not change state.

Telemecanique does change the state of both aux contacts when utilizing the "test" button.

So in other words, with Allen Bradley, if you are utilizing the N/O contacts to control an alarm or other action, you cannot "test" it by pushing the test button. It's a PITA.
 
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Old 09-02-06, 07:12 AM
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The NO (normally open) and NC (normally closed) description of relay contacts are considered to be with power off. Thus a NO contact closes when power is applied to the coil and a NC contact opens. Normally means no power.
steve
 
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Old 09-02-06, 07:51 AM
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in an overload unit, the N/C contacts are closed unless the overload is activated (overload condition) or the "test" button is engaged. Same action but obviously open to closed for the N/O contact.

They do not change state just because power is being applied to the L terminals. To evidence this, consider the time of starting the motor. If the N/C contact were open until power was applied, you could not apply power since it is the purpose of the N/C contact to open to interupt the power in the control circuit. If you could not apply power through the control circuit, you could not engage the contactor and subsequently apply power to the L terminals of the overload.

Now this could be overcome by utilizing an independant start circuit and a run circuit. That would allow one to over ride the contact of the overload but it is not done in this fashion because it is not neccessary.
 
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Old 09-03-06, 07:00 AM
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I think that we're comparing Apples and Oranges. I'm not familiar with the Telemenacique Overload. I was just stating that "in general" as a rule of thumb, magnetic relays are usually described as having normally open or normally closed contacts. This description is relative to the "normal" state of the relay...... which is power off.
steve
 
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Old 09-03-06, 07:41 AM
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I undestand ace, and you are correct in your statemement.

On the overload, the normal state does not change when power is applied. What makes the change of state is when the overload trips.

An overload is not a typical electromagnetically controlled relay. It is not activated or controlled by external means such as a typical relay is. Power running through it or not does not affect the status of the contacts, by itself.
 
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Old 09-06-06, 02:48 PM
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I don't know if you guys noticed or not but you lost the original poster long ago.

Just for edification. There are three basic types of relays.

There are "bi-metallic" relays-these relays use two dissimilar metals that heat at different rates. When they have heated enough, they come apart and "open" the "control" circuit.

There are "eutectic" overload relays-these relays use a solder pot and sprocketed wheel combination. When the solder is softened by two much heat passing over the relay, then the sprocketed wheel is allowed to be pushed by a spring mechanism. This will cause a "control circuit" to open.

Both of these relays are designed to sense how much heat flows across them. The heat being caused by the current being used.

Finally, there are "solid state" relays- which are the relays that are om question here. These operate on how much current is actually passing across the load wires of whatever is being operated. When the unit senses an "overload" condition, it will "open" the "control circuit" and stop the operation.

All relay units are designed to be used with some type of coil. Whether it is a motor starter, or a contactor. The relay controls the motor or "load" by opening the control circuit. Relays are control devices only.

In order for this person to use this relay, he would have to either have possession of or purchase the "starter" that it goes to.

What I don't understand is why nobody asked why he was trying to install this unit to begin with. The better direction would have been to have him check the nameplate on the motor and see if this motor has internal thermal protection. Typically, these internal thermal protectors will trip faster than a remote mounted relay due to the fact that they are inside the motor and the ambient heat from the motor itself will affect their operation. Further, these units are chosen and installed with their characteristics being closer to the heating curve of the motor.
 
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Old 09-06-06, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor

What I don't understand is why nobody asked why he was trying to install this unit to begin with. The better direction would have been to have him check the nameplate on the motor and see if this motor has internal thermal protection. .
We answered what he asked for. He gave no reason to believe what he was doing was in any way redundant to internal thermal overloads.(wouldn't hurt anyway). As a matter of fact, the OP stated the "The tech guy said" Now do you really want to argue with "the tech guy".?

He has apparently spoken with someone somewhat knowledgable about the pump motor in question. If the OP wanted other info, all he had to do is ask.


He claimed to have info directing him to use this type of device. I do not question everything. Unless there is reason to suspect the OP's are heading down the wrong road, I generally give them what they ask for.
 
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Old 09-06-06, 03:57 PM
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There inlies the problem, not all op's know what to ask for.

I wasn't criticizing, I was merely wondering why no one questioned the need for the additional protection. Yes, you are right it won't hurt. However, if the thermal trips first it won't do anything.

When installing anything for our customers, I would think we would want to educate them to the highest degree possible. An educated consumer is a fantastic customer.
 
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Old 09-06-06, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Professor
I don't know if you guys noticed or not but you lost the original poster long ago.

Just for edification. There are three basic types of relays.

There are "bi-metallic" relays-these relays use two dissimilar metals that heat at different rates. When they have heated enough, they come apart and "open" the "control" circuit.

There are "eutectic" overload relays-these relays use a solder pot and sprocketed wheel combination. When the solder is softened by two much heat passing over the relay, then the sprocketed wheel is allowed to be pushed by a spring mechanism. This will cause a "control circuit" to open.

Both of these relays are designed to sense how much heat flows across them. The heat being caused by the current being used.

Finally, there are "solid state" relays- which are the relays that are om question here. These operate on how much current is actually passing across the load wires of whatever is being operated. When the unit senses an "overload" condition, it will "open" the "control circuit" and stop the operation.
Those are not types of relays, those are types of thermal protection. Or heaters. Often times the relay associated with thremal protection comes as a seperate component.

Most "relays" are not used for motor overlaod protection.

BTW, I don't know if your realize, but you drug up a three day old topic to provide us all with this bit of misinformation, and a lecture on the proper way to answer posts.
 
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Old 09-07-06, 05:43 AM
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BTW, I don't know if your realize, but you drug up a three day old topic to provide us all with this bit of misinformation, and a lecture on the proper way to answer posts.
[/QUOTE]

Touche!
 
  #22  
Old 09-07-06, 02:36 PM
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Nevermind that the information provided was correct, right??

Hey, guys, I'm sorry you obviously have this little thing going here and I intruded. Don't want to rain on anyone's cornflakes.
 
  #23  
Old 09-11-06, 10:48 AM
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This is an old thread but for those interested "telemecanique" is the proper motor overload relay it must be matched with a GV-2 or GV-3 LC series contactor/starter.

Square D makes them.
Anyway go here for a look-see at the overload relay and starter.

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Motor%20Control/Contactors%20and%20Starters,%20IEC%20Style/Non-Reversing%20Contactors,%20TeSys%20D-Line/LC1D/8502BR0101.pdf
 
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Old 09-12-06, 06:22 AM
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Good info.
The last time that I specified and installed a motor starter we were using NEMA frames (Furnas, Square D, etc.). These new starters are about half the size for the same hp.
Do they perform as well and last as long as the old ones?
Shows how long I've been out of the business.
steve
 
  #25  
Old 09-12-06, 09:06 AM
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Well I'm not sure Ace. I'm in the same boat as you are. In my world we use the starters and relays like this only because we cant get any of the older magnetic starters from Allen Bradley. Other than the relay being adjustable (dial in feature) to the motor fla they wire pretty much the same. You dont have the eutectic type relays the allens had where you sized the overload with "heator packs".
The control circuit was 120 volts with the coil being A1 AND A2 and the return was off one of relay aux contacts.The contactor coil "pulls in" when the start button (N.O.) is pressed. Once the contactor auxillary contact (N.O) closes, it "holds in" the start circuit. It then runs until the stop button(N.C.) is pressed, breaking the control circuit. A normally closed contact (N.C.) will be provided so you can use the overload status for anything you wish (usually 120V control circuit). We are still kinda like the dinosaurs here....still using gear reducers on the motors instead of vfd control. The old starters and relay combo's we have replaced with new style seem to be very reliable.

Roger
 

Last edited by Roger; 09-12-06 at 09:44 AM.
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