New recepticals in old house.

Reply

  #1  
Old 09-03-06, 02:36 PM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
New recepticals in old house.

I am looking to add some new outlets into an spare bedroom. The current outlets donot have a ground wire in them. What is the best way to ground the new outlet and the old one short of running a ground wire back to the pannel? the pannel is not only a long way but is almost impossible to get to w/o major remodel.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 09-03-06, 03:53 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Well, that is the only way to provide a ground.

If you want an actual ground, you will need to figure out how to get that ground wire from your new receps to the panel.

I believe, by code, (I don't do a lot of resi work so the resi codes are not ingrained in my head) you have to provide a ground for a new recep in your case.

When replacing old receps and there is no ground, a GFCI can be used to provide a safety factor. This still does nothing to provide a ground which is important on some electronic gear.
 
  #3  
Old 09-03-06, 06:39 PM
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 39,967
Received 4 Votes on 4 Posts
If you are looking to provide a "grounding wire" you will have to run one. If you are looking to use modern grounded receptacles, the only way you can do this aside from running a grounding wire is to install GFCI receptacles at the circuit's first location, and protect all receptacles downstream from the bottom screws, labelling all cover plates on the downstream receptacles as GFCI protected and No Ground. This will allow you to use three pronged appliances.
 
  #4  
Old 09-04-06, 07:30 AM
T
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Euclid, Oh
Posts: 341
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'm not a code expert by any means, but I read any "new" bedroom outlets must be Arc Faults, but if you are adding on to existing its not necessary ?
 
  #5  
Old 09-04-06, 08:44 AM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Good catch tribe fan.

Only one caveat though. Some jurisdictions have not accepted that section of the code or don;t actually use the NEC as a directive. OP will have to check local authority for actual requirement.
 
  #6  
Old 09-04-06, 09:23 AM
J
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Bern, NC
Posts: 1,623
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Some states, and local governments that have adopted the 2002 or 2005 codes have specifc exceptions to not require arc fault devices. For good reasons. First there is no proof that there ever was a problem that the arc fault breaker could prevent, and second arc fault breakers have not proven to do the job they are intended to do. In fact they cause alot of neusance tripping more than anything else.

Where I live they are the law. You all know I would never break the law, or suggest that anyone else break the law, but the facts are the facts.

This is of coarse my opinion on the subject and not necessarily the opinioin of the owners of this forum.
 
  #7  
Old 09-04-06, 01:05 PM
R
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
You are not allowed to extend the existing ungrounded circuit. Period.

You can add a new circuit. If arc-fault protection is required in your area then it must be arc fault protected.

You have a choice. You can install the new circuit to only the new receptacles you want, and leave the existing receptacles alone, or you could rewire the existing receptacles to be on the new circuit you add.
 
  #8  
Old 09-04-06, 06:47 PM
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Posts: 159
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
"You are not allowed to extend the existing ungrounded circuit. Period."

I disagree. 250.130(C) of the 2005 NEC clearly allows the OP to install a grounding conductor seperate from the other circuit conductors and extend the existing ungrounded circuit.

The new receptacles must have an equipment grounding conductor period.

This conductor can be run to where the water pipe enters the building, if the electrical service is already connected to it. It can be connected to a ground rod by the service, if the ground rod is already connected to the electrical service. The key is, it must be connected to the service neutral at the service, or what the NEC considers the next best thing (connected grounding electrodes).

The new receptacle's circuit would need to be AFCI protected, under the NEC, IMO. If the panel accepts AFCI breakers, it could be as easy as swapping out the breakers. It would likely be much harder, because any shared neutrals in your home would trip the AFCI. If your existing panel does not accept any current brands of AFCI breakers, then you would be looking at installing a new panel just for this receptacle, so you could AFCI protect it.

IMO, I see no inherent safety issue with omitting the AFCI protection, especially if it's one outlet. It may not be 100% legal, but it's unreasonable in some circumstances. They didn't say it, I did.
 
  #9  
Old 09-04-06, 07:05 PM
J
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Bern, NC
Posts: 1,623
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
There is one other option. That is to extend the circuit using ungrounded outlets. But, that is not what the OP asked, is it. He asked how to connect the ground.
 
  #10  
Old 09-05-06, 06:29 AM
T
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jwhite
There is one other option. That is to extend the circuit using ungrounded outlets. But, that is not what the OP asked, is it. He asked how to connect the ground.
Thank you all for your advice and opinions, you have been helpful.
 
  #11  
Old 09-05-06, 07:44 AM
R
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
My comment about extending an ungrounded circuit is, I believe, correct.

I am not sure if you are allowed to ground a circuit (by adding a ground wire) and then extend it. However, if you can, then it is no longer an ungrounded circuit you are extending.

I am not sure if you are allowed to extend an ungrounded circuit with new ungrounded receptacles. You can certainly replace ungrounded receptacvles with new ones, but I do not think you can extend the circuit in this manner.
 
  #12  
Old 09-05-06, 09:05 AM
J
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New Bern, NC
Posts: 1,623
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I have it from a good source that the 2008 will eliminate extending from an ungrounded circuit. For now you can still extend knob and tube circuits as well.

I would need to dig deep into the sections as they are obscure.
 
  #13  
Old 09-05-06, 05:48 PM
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Posts: 159
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
----------------------------------------------------------
Bob wrote:

"My comment about extending an ungrounded circuit is, I believe, correct.

I am not sure if you are allowed to ground a circuit (by adding a ground wire) and then extend it. However, if you can, then it is no longer an ungrounded circuit you are extending."
-------------------------------------------------------------
Did you read 250.130(C)?
-------------------------------------------------------------
250.130(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure
------------------------------------------------------------
When the code is referring to "Branch circuit extensions", it is referring to extending old branch circuits that were installed prior to the EGC requirement, wouldn't you agree?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Bob wrote:
"I am not sure if you are allowed to extend an ungrounded circuit with new ungrounded receptacles. You can certainly replace ungrounded receptacvles with new ones, but I do not think you can extend the circuit in this manner."
-------------------------------------------------------------

I agree. 406.3(A), (B) and (C) would apply to a receptacle that is installed new today. All new receptacles are required by code to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.

A proposal was submitted to change this in the 2008, and allow non-grounding receptacles to be installed on branch circuit extensions. It was rejected.
 
  #14  
Old 09-05-06, 05:54 PM
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado
Posts: 159
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
-------------------------------------------------------------
jwhite wrote:
"I have it from a good source that the 2008 will eliminate extending from an ungrounded circuit. For now you can still extend knob and tube circuits as well."
-------------------------------------------------------------

I have just looked through the Report on Proposals looking for what you described, could you be more specific?

No proposals were accepted for 250.130 or anything relevant in 394, as near as I can tell.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: