CODE QUESTION-- opinion
#1
09-22-06, 05:07 PM
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CODE QUESTION-- opinion
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Situation:
Surface mounted light.
Desire: recessed Lights.
Attack: Remove surface light and current box. Slack in existing cables, enough to make a splice/junction in a 4 square and secure it to a floor joist.
Install all new cans, tie into the 4-sq. Lights work all is good.
Question: This box can be accessed by removing 1 recessed can. Would this be acceptable/available?
Would this be any different than having to remove the can to get to the fixture junction itself?
Given (of course) all splices are correct, the cover is on and all fill requirements are met.
__________________
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Situation:
Surface mounted light.
Desire: recessed Lights.
Attack: Remove surface light and current box. Slack in existing cables, enough to make a splice/junction in a 4 square and secure it to a floor joist.
Install all new cans, tie into the 4-sq. Lights work all is good.
Question: This box can be accessed by removing 1 recessed can. Would this be acceptable/available?
Would this be any different than having to remove the can to get to the fixture junction itself?
Given (of course) all splices are correct, the cover is on and all fill requirements are met.
__________________
BE SMART............BE SAFE !!!!
#3
09-22-06, 05:26 PM
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#4
09-22-06, 05:28 PM
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#5
09-22-06, 05:33 PM
Would your answer change at all if the junction box in question were for a different circuit altogether?
I have no experience with this kind of a situation, so this is all speculation.
The box for a can light is part of the can assembly. It purpose is for making the connections for the can light. Anyone familiar with can lights knows that you either need access from above (crawl space) or you have to remove the can to get to the box. In other words, you know it's there.
Unless you know about it (either you installed it or someone told you about it), you would not suspect a box to be hidden there.
I have no experience with this kind of a situation, so this is all speculation.
The box for a can light is part of the can assembly. It purpose is for making the connections for the can light. Anyone familiar with can lights knows that you either need access from above (crawl space) or you have to remove the can to get to the box. In other words, you know it's there.
Unless you know about it (either you installed it or someone told you about it), you would not suspect a box to be hidden there.
#6
09-22-06, 05:40 PM
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This is the SAME ckt. this box feeds only these lights.
#Unless you know about it (either you installed it or someone told you about it), you would not suspect a box to be hidden there.#
Is it truly hidden? It is accessable.
#Unless you know about it (either you installed it or someone told you about it), you would not suspect a box to be hidden there.#
Is it truly hidden? It is accessable.
#7
09-22-06, 06:16 PM
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First off, no, I would not change my answer.
What about a j-box tucked away in an attic, covered with insulation bats?
How many times have we all had to search for this box?
I see a box near a recessed can as no different.
I think the bottom line is the exact interpretation of "accessible" as found in the NEC:
~Accessible (as applied to wiring methods).-
Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.~
What about a j-box tucked away in an attic, covered with insulation bats?
How many times have we all had to search for this box?
I see a box near a recessed can as no different.
I think the bottom line is the exact interpretation of "accessible" as found in the NEC:
~Accessible (as applied to wiring methods).-
Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.~
#8
09-23-06, 03:59 AM
Let me put a little twist on this to compare.
Large independent living facility. All dry wall ceiling. Lights are two X four lay in with drywall rings. Lighting circuit is run in conduit and boxes are secured to Metal joists above the lights. Flex whips are installed from junction boxes above the lights to the fixture.
Are these junction boxes accessable? One would need to remove a 2/4 drop in light to access the box.
Anyone who has done large facilities with drywall ceilings knows that J box placement is a pain, and the buyers always want as few access panels as possible, making these prime realistate for valves, j boxes and other services that different codes require access to.
This came off an engineered drawing on one job that I did, and the inspector approved it. I do not agree, but I did install as I was told.
Large independent living facility. All dry wall ceiling. Lights are two X four lay in with drywall rings. Lighting circuit is run in conduit and boxes are secured to Metal joists above the lights. Flex whips are installed from junction boxes above the lights to the fixture.
Are these junction boxes accessable? One would need to remove a 2/4 drop in light to access the box.
Anyone who has done large facilities with drywall ceilings knows that J box placement is a pain, and the buyers always want as few access panels as possible, making these prime realistate for valves, j boxes and other services that different codes require access to.
This came off an engineered drawing on one job that I did, and the inspector approved it. I do not agree, but I did install as I was told.
#9
09-23-06, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by lectriclee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Situation:
Surface mounted light.
Desire: recessed Lights.
Attack: Remove surface light and current box. Slack in existing cables, enough to make a splice/junction in a 4 square and secure it to a floor joist.
Install all new cans, tie into the 4-sq. Lights work all is good.
Question: This box can be accessed by removing 1 recessed can. Would this be acceptable/available?
Would this be any different than having to remove the can to get to the fixture junction itself?
Given (of course) all splices are correct, the cover is on and all fill requirements are met.
__________________
BE SMART............BE SAFE !!!!
Situation:
Surface mounted light.
Desire: recessed Lights.
Attack: Remove surface light and current box. Slack in existing cables, enough to make a splice/junction in a 4 square and secure it to a floor joist.
Install all new cans, tie into the 4-sq. Lights work all is good.
Question: This box can be accessed by removing 1 recessed can. Would this be acceptable/available?
Would this be any different than having to remove the can to get to the fixture junction itself?
Given (of course) all splices are correct, the cover is on and all fill requirements are met.
__________________
BE SMART............BE SAFE !!!!
I've done this exact thing and never been tagged for it.
IMO...As long as the fixtures are re-model cans and the splices are correctly done in a box with a cover, it's OK.
The JB is accessible, without damaging the ceiling or having to remove any part of the building.
What is the concern? If you have to work on the light, you'll have to remove it anyway, and you'll see the JB.
Re-model cans take about 30 seconds to remove from the ceiling, it's not a big deal (to me).
steve
#10
09-23-06, 07:05 AM
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RE: post#8. JWhite, been there done that (all of us). I never did like it either, and special permision was needed. Some inspectors considerd the light (installed in this manner) as part of the structure. there for not allowed to allter.
We've used the fixture as the jb.
Anyway in a resi. setting, I have done it.
The question was posed to me the other day by a DYIr, and I didn't have an answer, never really thought about it.
Seemed reasonable on its' face, so I posted it here for some input.
Definate gray area,
We've used the fixture as the jb.
Anyway in a resi. setting, I have done it.
The question was posed to me the other day by a DYIr, and I didn't have an answer, never really thought about it.
Seemed reasonable on its' face, so I posted it here for some input.
Definate gray area,
#11
09-23-06, 07:30 AM
Even though I did not like the method, I have to agree that it is legal. I also don't like EMT outside or underground and alot of other things.
We can all agree that boxes need to remain accessable. Next we have to look at the defination in the code.
Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
Since a 2x4 drop in or recess can is not a permanently installed part of the structure. And either can be removed without damaging the building. (If you are good, sometimes thy get in a bind) I would have to say that this method is Legal.
I do not believe that I would enjoy reaching up in a 5 inch round hole with a metal bracket arround it to work in that J box. But there are alot of things I do for work that I do not enjoy.
My opinion is that this is not a desirable way to do this, but it is a legal way to do it.
We can all agree that boxes need to remain accessable. Next we have to look at the defination in the code.
Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
Since a 2x4 drop in or recess can is not a permanently installed part of the structure. And either can be removed without damaging the building. (If you are good, sometimes thy get in a bind) I would have to say that this method is Legal.
I do not believe that I would enjoy reaching up in a 5 inch round hole with a metal bracket arround it to work in that J box. But there are alot of things I do for work that I do not enjoy.
My opinion is that this is not a desirable way to do this, but it is a legal way to do it.
#12
09-23-06, 07:37 AM
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Thanks folks,
I feel better with the advice I gave.
Not illegal and not recommended, BUT if no other option,permitted.
I feel better with the advice I gave.
Not illegal and not recommended, BUT if no other option,permitted.
