Can I run phone line with AC?

Reply

  #1  
Old 12-12-06, 09:59 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 66
Can I run phone line with AC?

Hello, nice forum! I'm new here and will probably have several questions over the next few weeks.

I'm adding Electric to a detached garage about 10 feet from the house, want a welder out there also. Was advised to use (3) 4 gauge's with a ground, plan to bury it in PVC about 18 inches down. Would like to run some other lines out there also like phone, speakers, alarm etc...

Questions:
Can I run these other wires in the same PVC as the Electrical?
What gauge is required for the ground with these (3) 4 AWG?
What size breaker in Main Panel (200 Amp) to garage and what size in sub-panel for Welder?

Thanks to all,
67lplc
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 12-12-06, 10:33 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,533
> bury it in PVC about 18 inches down

18" depth is the minimum depth to the top of the conduit.

> Can I run these other wires in the same PVC as the Electrical?

No, they cannot be in the same conduit. You can run them in the same trench, but the electrical wires generate a magnetic field which will cause interference in the data lines. Fuzzy TV, humming on the phone line, etc. It's a good idea to keep the data cables 12" from the electrical cables. One way of doing this is to bury the electrical conduit 24" deep, fill the trench half way, and bury the data cables 12" deep in the same trench.

> What gauge is required for the ground with these (3) 4 AWG?

Assuming copper wire, #8.

> What size breaker in Main Panel (200 Amp) to garage

With 4-4-4-8 copper feeder, you may have up to a 100A breaker feeding the subpanel. Likewise, the subpanel should be rated for at least 100A.

If you decide that you only need 60A to the garage, you can use a 6-6-6-10 feeder to save some money on the wire.

In either case, you will need to buy an add-on ground bar kit for the subpanel and keep the grounds and neutrals isolated. Remove the bonding strap/screw in the subpanel and throw it away. Also, install an 8' x 5/8" copper ground rod and connect it to the subpanel's ground bar with bare #6 copper wire.

> what size in sub-panel for Welder?

Depends on the model # and brand of the machine. There are some welder experts who can give you the details if you post back that info.
 
  #3  
Old 12-14-06, 11:05 AM
william tell's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 176
You can run them in the same conduit as long as you have shielded cable, otherwise like 67lplc said you will get interference from the electromagnetic field
 
  #4  
Old 12-14-06, 11:09 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
You may NOT run them in the same conduit, shielded cable or not. It is expressly prohibited by the NEC.
 
  #5  
Old 12-14-06, 01:52 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 4,291
Since it's only 10', suggest you run 2 separate conduits. One for the electric feeder, and another for low voltage use - separated 12-18" as previously stated. The conduit will protect the low voltage wires, and when the next new technology comes out (intercom, network, fiber, etc), you can simply pull the new cable through instead of getting the shovel out again. Since PVC conduit is cheap, suggest 1.25" or 1.5" for low voltage - much easier to pull through. Oh, and add a pull cord (rope) in there as well for future use.
 
  #6  
Old 12-15-06, 05:24 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 69
i have cat 5e cable running to my garage for my phone line in same pvc as my ac, i have no problems with it. it is about 12- 15 feet from the house.
 
  #7  
Old 12-15-06, 05:54 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
72chev,

You have a code violation and a dangerous situation. You are lucky so far that nobody has been hurt. Further, you are lucky there is no interference.

I strongly suggest that you rectify this situation before you kill someone. Now that you know it is both wrong and dangerous, if someone gets hurt it's all on you. You can no longer blame it on ignorance. Laziness perhaps, but not ignorance.
 
  #8  
Old 12-15-06, 06:49 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 69
i will correct this situation. i still guess i am ignorant on this issue. could you please explain the danger of this? violation yes, but why? i am not an electrician by no means at all, so could you please explain this to me. there is also coax cable running in with this, this also needs removed??
i am located in Pa.
 

Last edited by 72chev; 12-15-06 at 07:15 PM.
  #9  
Old 12-15-06, 07:03 PM
GregH's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 9,766
Our codes may be similar to my southern cousins in that other cables can be run with power wires in conduit as long as they have the same voltage rating.
 
  #10  
Old 12-16-06, 12:43 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,533
> guess i am ignorant on this issue. could you please explain the danger of this?

The danger is that the insulation on the CAT5 and COAX cables are not rated for high enough voltage. The rule is that all wires in a conduit must have a minimum insulation rating equal to or greater than the highest voltage and the highest temperature present in the conduit. Therefore, you have 120V power conductors in the conduit, so every other wire in the conduit must have insulation rating of at least 120V. Most CAT5, COAX, speaker wire, phone cable, etc do not have insulation rated for line voltage and possibly not for the temperature.

The danger comes in when that data cable is exposed to the higher voltage due to a break in the conductor insulation or accidental contact in a j-box on either side of the conduit. The data cable can then become energized at 120V which could be hazardous to the computer, telephone, etc user. If nothing else it would probably wreck the appliance.
 
  #11  
Old 12-16-06, 01:31 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 69
thank you ibpooks for the explaination. now i understand the danger.
 
  #12  
Old 12-16-06, 10:55 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 80
I know the other guys will disagree with me, but this business of crosstalk/interference in cat5 cables is overrated. I have cat5 cables in very close proximity (NOT in the same conduit however) to the 100A subpanel feed to the garage. Same deal where the 200A service enters the house.

I have cat5 cables running with the main bundle of Romex for the entire garage that runs through the attic. No problems with phone/internet/network whatsoever.

Joe Michel
 
  #13  
Old 12-17-06, 12:51 AM
rdn2113's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wally World
Posts: 451
The main issue was the propriety of combining the different types of wire into the same conduit. I don't disagree with you regarding the crosstalk issue. CAT-x wire is twisted to effectively cancel most EMI and RFI, so in most cases the electric and electronic interference generated in most homes is not an issue - even around motors.

There are greater inductive dangers in both areas in certain settings - like a substation where there are very high voltages.

The danger issue has been covered by ibpooks very well.
 
  #14  
Old 12-17-06, 06:23 AM
HandyRon's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 1,365
Most of the low voltage comm wire I have laying around my home right now is rated to insulate against 150V or 300V, so you might be ok. Just check.
 
  #15  
Old 12-17-06, 07:57 AM
mango man's Avatar
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sw FL
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by HandyRon View Post
Most of the low voltage comm wire I have laying around my home right now is rated to insulate against 150V or 300V, so you might be ok. Just check.
NEC doesnt allow it so it really doesnt matter . point is if the insulated where damaged you could get 120 ac running to your phone or nic which isn't insulated for it and it could kill someone


doing It wrong could kill someone , doing it right is not a big deal so do it right

the fact that you have done it with no problem means nothing

you can point a loaded gun at your head 1,000,000,00,000 times and have it not go off .

you wont catch me doing it once
 
  #16  
Old 12-17-06, 02:56 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
The NEC does not allow running low voltage wires in the same conduit as high voltage wires, no matter what kind of wire is used. telephone, Ethernet, CATV, and all similar wires are low voltage.
 
  #17  
Old 12-18-06, 07:46 AM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 7
Slightly off topic but I have read elsewhere in this forum that one can buy divided 2-gang boxes, so that one side can have receptacles and the other can have cable or phone wire. Does anyone have a link to a manufacturer or supplier?
 
  #18  
Old 12-18-06, 07:53 AM
mango man's Avatar
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sw FL
Posts: 2,122
I imagine they exist but Ive never seen one

I would just put a two gang in for electric and a mud ring on the other side of the stud for voice/data
 
  #19  
Old 12-18-06, 08:07 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central New York State
Posts: 13,973
There are split boxes just for this purpose. However, I don't know who makes them.
 
  #20  
Old 12-18-06, 08:33 AM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 7
Nevermind, I found them:

Carlon's multi-gang Super Blue Boxes (two gang box PN# BH235A) are available with dividers (supplied separately PN# SCDIV). Carlon also makes a Dual Voltage Box/Bracket (SC200DV).
 
  #21  
Old 12-18-06, 12:20 PM
wgc
wgc is offline
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 362
big box store has them

I saw them on the shelf of my local big box store, so you should be able to find them pretty easily.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes