Sub Panel for Outdoor Kitchen and Pool Pump

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  #1  
Old 02-22-07, 10:20 AM
dwf
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Question Sub Panel for Outdoor Kitchen and Pool Pump

Will this work or do I need to redo my plan?

The outdoor kitchen sub panel will be 125' from the main panel. I plan to install 50 amp 220VAC breaker at the main & 125' of #6-3 nmwg wire in 1.5" PVC conduit. From sub-panel to the 14 amp 220VAC pool pump is an additional 125'. I plan to install a 20 amp 220VAC GFIC breaker at the sub & 125' #10-3 nmwg in 1.5" conduit and use a A/C disconnect at the pump. The sub panel will also have 3 15 amp 110VAC breakers.

Thanks for your input!
 
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  #2  
Old 02-22-07, 11:57 AM
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> 125' of #6-3 nmwg wire in 1.5" PVC conduit.

Type NM cable cannot be used outdoors or underground. You need to either use a waterproof cable like 6/3g UF-B or individual THWN conductors in the conduit. I do not recommend that you put the cable in conduit -- it will be very difficult to pull #6 cable into 125' of conduit. If you use conduit, install stranded THWN conductors; if you use cable, directly bury it in the trench.

> 125' #10-3 nmwg in 1.5" conduit and use a A/C disconnect at the pump.

From the panel to the pump, you must use THWN conductors (including an insulated green ground) in conduit. For a 240V pump, you do not need a neutral conductor -- two hots and a ground. Cables are not allowed for pool pumps because they have a bare ground.

> 3 15 amp 110VAC breakers.

Powering what?
 
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Old 02-22-07, 12:00 PM
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One additional question. Where is the outdoor subpanel? Will it mount to a post, outbuilding, etc?
 
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Old 02-22-07, 12:57 PM
dwf
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Thanks for the reply.

Does it make a difference if the conduit is PVC?

The 110 breakers will be for recepticals (gas grill igniter power, etc.), lights and ceiling fan, and a small frige.

Sub Panel will be exterior mount to wall at covered outdoor kitchen area.
 
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Old 02-22-07, 01:12 PM
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If this will be a sub-panel for pool equipment the feeder to this panel MUST be run in conduit and have an insulated ground.
This means NO UF cable.
 
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Old 02-22-07, 01:13 PM
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> Does it make a difference if the conduit is PVC?

PVC is the preferred conduit for underground installations because it will not rust. All outdoor conduits collect water inside because of condensation through day/night temperature cycles. Therefore exterior conduits require waterproof conductors.

If you do install the conduit, it should be buried 18" to the top of the conduit. The conductors you pull should be THWN with #6 for the hots and neutral and #10 for the ground. The ground should be green or bare, the neutral must be white, and the hots may be any color other than white, grey or green.

If you go with the cable, use #6/3wg UF-B copper buried at least 18" to the top of the cable. Given your 125' distance and the price of copper, I would alternatively consider using an underground aluminum service cable like #2-2-4-6 mobile home feeder cable. This will probably be a bit cheaper than the copper and would allow you up to 100A to the subpanel.

> Sub Panel will be exterior mount to wall at covered outdoor kitchen area.

At the subpanel, you will need to keep the grounds and neutrals isolated by purchasing an add-on ground bar kit for the panel and removing the bonding screw or strap from the panel. You will also need to drive a 5/8" x 8' copper ground rod at the subpanel and connect it to the ground bus using bare #6 copper wire and an acorn clamp on the rod.
 
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Old 02-22-07, 01:16 PM
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I forgot to mention. The ground must be copper.
 
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Old 02-22-07, 01:20 PM
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Speedy brings up a good point. National code would prohibit the UF-B cable between the house and subpanel; however some local codes (like mine) would allow it. Before you buy any materials, be sure to ask your electrical inspector.

If your area follows unmodified NEC, then you must use THWN conductors in conduit with an insulated, green, copper ground.
 
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Old 02-22-07, 01:50 PM
dwf
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Thanks for all the help. The PVC conduit was installed when the yard was dug up a couple months ago. I recall the conduit being put in a 24" deep trench plus the grade was brought up about 6". I will use individual THWN conductors. I assume you agree that the breaker and conductor size is correct. I live in Central Texas and have a lot of rock. How do you drive the ground rod in 8'? I think there may be some kind of adapter that fits on a hammer drill.

Thanks
 
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Old 02-22-07, 02:57 PM
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> The PVC conduit...24" deep trench...individual THWN conductors

All good.

> I assume you agree that the breaker and conductor size is correct.

Yes. With #6-6-6-10 (hot-hot-neutral-ground) you may have up to a 60A breaker feeding the subpanel. I think that 50A is a good choice to compensate for the voltage drop over that distance.

The #10-10-10 (hot-hot-ground) to the 240V pool pump over 125' is also a good choice to compensate for voltage drop.

> a lot of rock. How do you drive the ground rod in 8'?

[electrician joke] I don't -- the helper does!

Kidding aside, you can drive the rod with a hammer drill. Some people get by with just a lump hammer. It usually helps to dig the first 12-18" with a shovel, then fill the hole with water and let it soak in a few times. Also, keep a bucket of water handy and pour it as you drive the rod to generate some mud and lubricate the process.

If you really can't get the rod driven 8' straight down, you're allowed to drive it at up to a 45 degree angle to hopefully miss the rock. If that doesn't work, you can use a ground plate or a horizontal ground rod buried at least 30". Anything more shallow and you'll have to check with the local inspector.
 
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Old 02-22-07, 03:18 PM
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Where are you located? Type NMW wire is Canadian rating of NM that is rated for wet That is what the W is for. The dry cable is NMD.
 
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