Question on the USA mains supply

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Old 02-25-07, 10:55 AM
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Question on the USA mains supply

In New Zealand one end of the winding at the power pole transformer is connected to Earth making that lead "neutral" so the other end of the 230 Volt winding is labeled "phase"

So what does USA have? some people claim US has a balanced supply (I take that must have a center tap transformer at the pole and center tap is earthed) this would make it 60 V from earth to phase, and 60 V from earth to neutral for a 120V supply

Richard Principal


Disclaimer: My mind is so fragmented by random excursions into a wilderness of abstractions and incipient ideas that the practical purposes of the moment are often submerged in my consciousness and I often don't know what I'm doing.
 
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Old 02-25-07, 11:11 AM
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So what does USA have? some people claim US has a balanced supply (I take that must have a center tap transformer at the pole and center tap is earthed) this would make it 60 V from earth to phase, and 60 V from earth to neutral for a 120V supply
====================

on most residential systems (secondary of transformer), this is correct except the phase to neutral is 120v and the phase to phase is 240 volt.

earth to neutral is 0 volts since the neutral is bonded to ground.
 
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Old 02-25-07, 01:42 PM
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In North America (Canada and US) for residential we have 120/240 supply. The transformer is center tapped and the center tap is grounded.
 
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Old 02-25-07, 06:01 PM
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I think the North American scheme is pretty cool. It gives you 240 volts when you need a lot of power, and the relative safety of 120 volts when you don't.
 
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Old 02-25-07, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by John Nelson View Post
I think the North American scheme is pretty cool. It gives you 240 volts when you need a lot of power, and the relative safety of 120 volts when you don't.
don't get me started with this.

threashold of death; 50 volts 5 milliamps. More people die from 120 v than any voltage. Probably due to the fact that more folks are exposed to this voltage but it may also be that more folks discount the lethality of 120 volts.
 
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Old 02-25-07, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
don't get me started with this.
Not to get you all wound up, pun intended, but I'd be interested in the history of why we have the center-tap 120V setup in residential USA.

The 240V wall outlets I've seen in other countries have looked like they use smaller wire than we use here (Maybe something around 16 AWG instead of 14 AWG). To me that indicates lower wiring costs in their scheme.
 
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Old 02-25-07, 07:41 PM
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we have a limit of 14 as a minimum size wire no matter the voltage (with some exceptions but it is a general rule).

and wire size is based on current, not voltage. It may simply be they accept the use of a smaller wire than we do.

here is a link that is pretty interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

it explains that in reality, a split phase system actually uses less wie than the typical non-split phase supply (although many here do not like MWBC)
and would be a saving over the straight 240 v sytems.
 
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Old 03-18-07, 01:18 PM
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The orginal reason for choosing 110V (later adjusted to 120) vas the poor quality of the first lamps. Early European systems used approxemately the same.
When AC bacame common Europe went to use a lot of 3 phase to save copper, and 220/127 volts was common. The voltage has later been more common as 380/220 to 400/230 (415/240 UK)
This makes the equipment quite equal and possible to use almoast all over.
(Several voltages may be in the industry, but mainly about 400/230)

As far as I know the US/Canadin use for more 120/240 single phase.
3 phase may be 240, with senter on the middle of one phase, causing voltages of 120, 208 and 240 +240 3-phase in the same system.

European 3-phase motors will normally operate ok in Amerikan 3 phase 240 volt systems but will run a little bit faster 6/5 as Europe caused by 60Hz.(instead of 50)

60Hz motors tend to get burned at 50 Hz if run at full load.

Australian systems seems to be equal to European, but voltages may be 415/240 or single phase 480/240 on some farms etc. Northern territory has a slightly higher voltage. (430/250 or 500/250)

Here in Norway modern systems has 400/230, but older may have 3 phase 230 with no neutral. (This system shold be found in Albania too, and was prohibited in UK from 1948)

dsk
 
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Old 03-18-07, 03:48 PM
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good to hear about the rest of the world. We don;t have many foreigners that post.

now about this:


3 phase may be 240, with senter on the middle of one phase, causing voltages of 120, 208 and 240 +240 3-phase in the same system.

How do you propose getting getting all 3 of those voltages. 240 and 208 are obtained from totally differently connected transformers. I have heard of such an animal before but I believe it was a specialty and special design transformer.

Care to expand and inform?
 
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Old 03-18-07, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
good to hear about the rest of the world. We don;t have many foreigners that post.

now about this:


3 phase may be 240, with senter on the middle of one phase, causing voltages of 120, 208 and 240 +240 3-phase in the same system.

How do you propose getting getting all 3 of those voltages. 240 and 208 are obtained from totally differently connected transformers. I have heard of such an animal before but I believe it was a specialty and special design transformer.

Care to expand and inform?
Nap To get this clear up few details here with oddball voltage what you just mention here

on three phase supply genrally are either delta or wye connected electrical system which it common for commercal and industrail area and from time to time super large resdentail home use 3 phase supply

Nap ,, the delta is like triangle at each corner is the line connection at each point of corner it is 240 volts [ they have other voltage setting as well ] all the way around but to get 240/120 delta system this get tricky and i will say pretty good percentage of electrician and oh sure many building owner get this screw up very well ok ,, as i just describing the delta ?? ok now go one step futher as far you know single phase centre tapped transformer right ?

ok visuilzed for a min now you have 4 points here each corner is still 240 volt but at one coil is center tap so you have both 120/ 240 volt there but a catch here if you get the centre tap aka netrual or grounded connection with top point of delta aka wild leg .. [ there are few other name as well but i will keep this forum " G " rated for now ] it will go up to 208 volt on wild leg and if some one hook up the 120 volt device like luimiaire wired for 120 volt get on 208 volt { POOOFF } bye bye bye 120 volt device real quick

Now , this is diffrent one what we called Wye or star connection system it get little confused for a min but let me explain as the way goes .

you start at the center which is the netural is located then work it way out each point from center to end of the wye is 120 volt it the same all the way around but from each star or wye point to star or wye point it is 208 volt

208 volts ?? how that happend ?? ok if you understand the wave forum like 50 or 60 HZ you start with one go up and down then get second one at 1/3 later go up and down and do the same thing with third one go up and down when you see the wave form almost the same it will roughly read not excat double of the voltage as you see or understood the single phase system is

the common way to figure out the voltage on three phase system is either mulitply or divied by 1.73 [ that is the square root of 3 ]

if you have more question i will post the link you have to paste it and read the short digram clear here

Merci , Marc

sorry for long typing on this one


wye connection picture :
http://www.electrical-contractor.net/theory/ybst1b.gif

Delta connection picture :
http://www.electrical-contractor.net/theory/deltad3.gif
 

Last edited by french277V; 03-18-07 at 05:52 PM. Reason: ahh the link for transformer connection
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Old 03-18-07, 07:35 PM
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thanks Marc. wish I could stop you before you got that all typed out. I am a commercial/industrial electrician.

I actually rarely deal with single phase services. Most of my work is 3 phase services.



what I was referring to was the post of:

3 phase may be 240, with senter on the middle of one phase, causing voltages of 120, 208 and 240 +240 3-phase in the same system

after re-reading this a dozen times, I do realize the voltages listed are quite normal for a 3 ph delta center tap transformer. It simply took me off guard for somebody to list the high leg voltage. It typically is not used although it can be.

thanks for the expenditure of time and effort.

btw: you did notice the wye config you posted is for not a standard wye transformer connection didn;t you?
 
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Old 03-18-07, 08:22 PM
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Nap :

yes i did goof on that one that was interconnected buck/boost wye connection thanks for catching the error

but if you delete one connections it will be becomeing a standard wye connection

Nap : i deal with both single and 3 phase system and including the DC system but just dont get me started on oddball 2 phase system [ that completly diffrent story to deal with it ]

Merci , Marc
 
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Old 03-18-07, 08:51 PM
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Nap : i deal with both single and 3 phase system and including the DC system but just dont get me started on oddball 2 phase system [ that completly diffrent story to deal with it ]
======
you're one up on me there. Don;t think I have ever run across any. Maybe some day when we are both bored you can school me.

btw, if you like large motors (although you can;t actually see them), on the electrical-contractor site, they used to have some photos submitted by Al Nadon of the car shredder in Elkhart Indiana.

I understand they are having problems with things in cars exploding as they shred them and the city is looking into legal action, I guess to shut them down until all the problems are remedied.

A friend of mine did most of the electric on the machine. Can;t remember offhand but I believe it utilizes 12.5Kv feeders.
 
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Old 03-18-07, 09:12 PM
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Nap : in fact i do have some free time to play around if you want to but the car shredder they have one or two rules there now that no propane tank and gasoline tank must be removed and yeah this is instering the tires have to be removed becaue some tires do explolded in the shredder.

if you wondering why because some tire they used quick filler gimzo stuff that have flameable stuff in there and get in the shreadder it will light off fast with bunch of 500- 600 lbs hammer you get the idea how much power you have to deal with it

that shredder it have 1500 hp motor run on 4160 volt supply

Merci , Marc
 
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Old 03-19-07, 03:21 AM
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Such high voltage are rarely used for motors here, often transfomed down to less than 1 kV. Even trains running on 16-20kV single phase 16 2/3 Hz uses a transformer.

Seen from here (Norway) it looks like the amarikans uses 3 single phase transformers making some sort of 240 V 3~ in a delta configuration. Here we use a 3~ Y transformers where the senter is grounded to make a newtral.
This makes 230 V single phase to smaller hosuses, and and 230/400V 3 phase to those hwo needs more.

Older installations may get a delta 230V with no neutral. Actually we have a cabin (quite small) and when the power supplyer ran a line in that aerea we got 230 3 phase for no more cost than single phase.

dsk
 
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Old 03-21-07, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ArgMeMatey View Post
The 240V wall outlets I've seen in other countries have looked like they use smaller wire than we use here (Maybe something around 16 AWG instead of 14 AWG). To me that indicates lower wiring costs in their scheme.
Two points;
1) Wire CSA is driven by current carrying capacity, 1,000W Microwave at 240V takes less current than the same system at 120V.
2) The UK (I'm British) use 'Ring Mains' for their Receptacles (or sockets as we should call them) circuits. This was driven by copper availability after WWII as it allows you to use a cable CSA rated at 2/3rds of the fuse rating. The normal setup for a typical UK Ring Main is 32A using 2.5mm CSA cable, which is only rated for 20A on a branch circuit.

If the term 'Ring Main' is new, you run the circuit from the breaker and back to the breaker in a loop (imagine a branch circuit with a cable from the final outlet on the branch running back to the same breaker).

I don't think 'Rings' are popular in other countries (other than former post WWII colonies), partly due to their perceived problems by not using fused plugs (all plugs in the UK are fused).

One thing that has amazed me about US code 'v' UK Code (as I've needed to learn it) is that you don't distinguish between a ceiling light and a receptacle, they're all simply 'outlets'. I was amazed when I found lighting and sockets on the same branch. As I've gone through my home and updated, I've separated the lights to their own circuits, apart from anything else, it's a pain in the arse working on wiring with the lights out. The other pain is you call things all the wrong names.

Despite thinking that wire nuts were nothing but cheap american junk, they've become my favorite aspect of US wiring. I still think that they're junk but they're just so convenient.
 
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Old 03-21-07, 01:13 PM
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The wire size is connected to the fuse size (Amps) and the lenghth of the cable (to reduce voltage drop etc.) The rules ar not wery different depending on country.
Ring circuits is not commonly used in other than UK related counties.
Neighter the split of circuits. UK inkorperates a fuse in the plug.
The modern UK plugs and outlets is safer too, it is impossible to pull the plug a little out, and get electrified by touching the pins.

If I should chose a standard for my country the UK model shold be choosen, (shold I make a new standard, the voltage shold be even higher, but less than 1000V

The higher voltage the higer wattage thru a 10 Amp fuse.
It seems to work well with the 250/500 Volts system in Northern territory Australia, so why not 500V?)

Many countries do not allow alu wire unless the dimension is 16 squere millimeters or more. It seems like this reduse the hasard of fire caused by oxidizing.

dsk
 
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Old 03-21-07, 01:18 PM
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> is that you don't distinguish between a ceiling light and a receptacle,
> they're all simply 'outlets'. I was amazed when I found lighting and sockets
> on the same branch.

Generally, lights and receptacles can be mixed on branch circuits with the exception of kitchens and sometimes bathrooms. I believe this is from the post-war housing boom in the U.S. when many living rooms and bedrooms did not have central lights installed. It was very common to install a switched receptacle for a lamp instead of a ceiling light.

> I still think that they [wirenuts] are junk but they're just so convenient.

I'm curious about what splicing method you think isn't junk. Wirenuts are quick, provide electrical connection, mechanical connection and insulation all in one package.
 
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Old 03-21-07, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by d_s_k View Post
The higher voltage the higer wattage thru a 10 Amp fuse.
It seems to work well with the 250/500 Volts system in Northern territory Australia, so why not 500V?)

Many countries do not allow alu wire unless the dimension is 16 squere millimeters or more. It seems like this reduse the hasard of fire caused by oxidizing.

dsk
i just want to head up with some more info [ let you know i am oringally from France ]

The USA / Cananda codes do not allow any device higher than 240 volt in resdentail area [ it stated very clear in the NEC code for so many years ]

the most common lighing and genral circuits is wired for 120 volts but we have 240 volt circuit for hevey useage device like electric stove , water heater , electric heater [ both furance type and baseboard heaters ] clothes dryer , and useally some larger motor used in water well [ typically 3/4 hp and over useally are on 240 volts unless specficed ]

we do have alum wires some older home in 70's era did have some issuse with it the most common curpit is the switch or repecale devices which they were not marked CO/ALR that is the first thing it will overheat

right now the only circuits that can used the alum wire in new home or current homes is hevey branch circuit like range , dryer and few other hevey current drawage device and also used for service entrance conductors.

Merci , Marc
 
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Old 03-21-07, 01:27 PM
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Ipbooks :

in European area it more common to use the " choc " block connector which it is a insluated set screw wire connector but they use the wire nuts but not very wide spread in that area.
 
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Old 03-21-07, 03:56 PM
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Scariest thing I ever saw was the power supply in the Philippines. (Circa 1970, maybe its changed.) They had a mixture of both 110v and 220v receptacle from separate fuse panels all wired to what we Americans would call a 120V receptacle. Nothing in a house usually indicated the voltage of individual receptacles. The occupants usually just remembered which was which. Things like radios, TVs, fans, etc. that in the U.S. would be sold only in 120v versions were sold both in 120V and 220 v versions. Both versions of course has the same plug. This occasionally resulted in a lot of excited shouting when a visitor went to plug something in the wrong voltage outlet for what was being plugged in.
 
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Old 03-22-07, 04:15 AM
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Maybe I have some language problems, but both theese are quite common in Norway.

http://www.elhandel.no/catalog/index.php?cPath=43_65

http://www.elhandel.no/catalog/index.php?cPath=43_66

dsk
Originally Posted by french277V View Post
Ipbooks :

in European area it more common to use the " choc " block connector which it is a insluated set screw wire connector but they use the wire nuts but not very wide spread in that area.
 
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Old 03-22-07, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Scariest thing I ever saw was the power supply in the Philippines. (Circa 1970, maybe its changed.) They had a mixture of both 110v and 220v receptacle from separate fuse panels all wired to what we Americans would call a 120V receptacle. Nothing in a house usually indicated the voltage of individual receptacles. The occupants usually just remembered which was which. Things like radios, TVs, fans, etc. that in the U.S. would be sold only in 120v versions were sold both in 120V and 220 v versions. Both versions of course has the same plug. This occasionally resulted in a lot of excited shouting when a visitor went to plug something in the wrong voltage outlet for what was being plugged in.
Sems ideal for a salesman selling things who breaks down when connected to the wrong voltage.

The possibility of such errors are available in norway too, but only for 3-phase outlets. And it will not be different voltages at the same type of outlet in the same building. This is due to canged standards, old houses 230V New houses 400 V if red colored outlet. 230 V if Blue. And as always, with exeption of the Stavangar area, who "always" has used 400V. Moastly no troble, since it only regards 3 phase.

dsk
 
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Old 03-22-07, 04:28 PM
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here in the US, we use a different configuration for just about any different voltage and amperage rating for the receptacles so you do not accidently plug something into the wrong voltage.

Here is a link to a recep configuration chart.

http://www.hubbell-canada.com/wiring/bryant/pdf/b/b5.pdf

It is not all inclusive since some configs have been phased out.

On those small connectors you linked; I couldn;t tell but do those employ a setscrew or are they merely spring tension devices? Since I can't read the language, the literature helps me none.
 
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Old 03-23-07, 02:49 AM
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The circular one has a spiral shaped spring inside, you just twist it on, and it keeps the tension. This works fine on few stranded cu wire (eg 7 strands) and quite well on massive CU.

The squere one has a kind of spring who locks harder when you pull in the wire, by my opinion this works best on massive cu, but is used all over.

Whwn you have on wall wiring a cable usually has massive cu, the cable is sheated (and grounded) and pvc coated, this is often connected with some kind screw connection.

All theese units is deemed to be N approved = your UL.

dsk
 
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Old 03-23-07, 04:24 PM
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your screw on type is similar (if not exactly the same) to our wire nuts.

http://www.idealindustries.com/wt/TwistOnWireConnectors.nsf

and the other wire connectors are the same as what we have available here as well.

http://www.idealindustries.com/wt/IdcPushin.nsf

Do you have any idea what Marc (french277) is referring to with the "chocs" term? It sounds like what we have hear. One brand name is Polaris.

http://www.aplussupply.com/nsipolaris/polarisconnectors.htm

under the round caps, there is a setscrew that is tightened onto the wire.
 
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Old 03-24-07, 02:19 AM
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Re choc, shortform of chocolate describes what it did loock like years ago, and got the name. In norway it could be called "lump of sugar " because the squere white prcelain version looks as it looks.

I'l guess it is the unit on this page called "koblingslist"
http://www.clasohlson.no/Product/Category.aspx?id=251856

The set screw tend somtimes to cut the wire, and this has redused the use of this a lot in Norway, but is quite common in the last box where the resident may fix a lamp.

dsk
 
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Old 03-24-07, 01:22 PM
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those just look like basic insulated terminal strips. I have never seen them used in a situation typically where one would use wire-nuts (spin on connector) but I suppose you could. It would take longer than using a wire-nut and probably more expensive.


Curious question for our newly found oversea brother (that's you d s k),

are you aware of the aluminum wiring debacle we had here 20 or 30 years ago and the fires caused by it?

Have you ever used aluminum for smaller conductors such as our #12 and #14 awg wire?
 
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Old 03-24-07, 03:31 PM
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In Norway it always has been prohibited to use Alu smaller tan AWG 6 (16mm^2).

I had a conversation with an electrician from Hawaii, at that time, he told me he wold not use alu, those houses tend tu burn down, even when they used equipment marked/designed for alu.

As far as I know it has not been any problems with those huge cables.

By the way, do you still use those big toggle switches such great mekanical and electrical quality has not been here since the 50-ies.

dsk
 
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Old 03-24-07, 04:14 PM
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[QUOTE=nap;1144630]

after re-reading this a dozen times, I do realize the voltages listed are quite normal for a 3 ph delta center tap transformer. It simply took me off guard for somebody to list the high leg voltage. It typically is not used although it can be.

In Canada we can not use the high leg of a center tapped delta, it must be isolated in a seperate compartment of the enclosure and indicated by an orange or red wire (or other suitable marking). I have never actually seen a center tapped delta connection although I am aware that such a beast exists and I would like to know more info about it. If anybody knows some interesting stuff about it, please contact me and bring me up to speed on this particular connection.
 
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Old 03-24-07, 05:00 PM
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[QUOTE=Rollie73;1147927]
Originally Posted by nap View Post

I have never actually seen a center tapped delta connection although I am aware that such a beast exists and I would like to know more info about it. If anybody knows some interesting stuff about it, please contact me and bring me up to speed on this particular connection.
one of the other posters (french277v) was kind enough to provide this link

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/theory/deltad3.gif


now when you view it, you need to do 2 things to make this a high leg (center tapped) delta.

first, remove the ground connection shown on C phase

then connect a ground tap between any 2 phases. (between the X2-X3 markings) In the US the high leg is supposed to be placed in the B phase placement on a panel and marked with orange tape.

Now what that does is give you a transformer that from the closest 2 phases to the ground tap-- 120 volts , from the ground to the one furthest phase--208 volts and from phase to phase--240 volts. That is, of course with using a x-former designed to supply 240 v phase-phase.

of course, the transformer must be designed for this type of connection. a delta transformer does not neccessarily have this connection possible if it wasn't intended to be connected as such.

Typically it is not used here in the states either but I am not aware of any code restrictions to using it. It does supply 208 volts (single phase) which also happens to be the 2 phase connection on a wye connected transformer.

208 volts is 208 volts. I have had motors listed for 208 that worked just fine on this connection rather than putting them on the 240 (which would be beyind the 10% design allowance required to meet NEMA standards) and it removes the need to install a buck-boost transformer or purchase a new motor.
 
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Old 03-25-07, 08:17 AM
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Smile

Thanks Nap Its always interesting to learn about new (to me at least) things.
 
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