wiring shop for 220v

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  #1  
Old 04-16-07, 09:49 PM
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wiring shop for 220v

Hi,Firstly I'll say,I'm not an electrician...As the favorite goes,I know just enough to be dangerous...I've reached a point that the work is shutdown,till I get a better understanding on a few areas.I have two areas of questions,one being at the start of the power run,and the other being at the end.I have had a home hobby shop built,it is wired,and all lighting,and recepticals are in place.... I have but one 220v outlet it is on a 30amp breaker,and the rest are all 110v... This is in the shop I speak of.On the wall inside the shop is a Cutler Hammer 200amp,box.With a 200amp main installed..... I have got to run power out to this bldng,and connect it up myself.Here's where the questions come in.I'll add this much before the questions.I have already trenched,and ran 4 legs of #4 wire,inside gray shl 40 PVC.All's left to do is connect up the ends.I will be utilizing a 80amp breaker to run the 220v out there.As I stated on 4 legs of #4 wire.To start,I have installed a 125amp,Siemens box which will house the 80amp breaker.It is mounted right along side(1' distance) my main box.Which is a 200amp Squard D box.I ran three legs of #2 wire to this Siemens box,from my main,on a 100amp breaker.the Siemens box,with the 80amp breaker has but one bar,and it is setup as a common.My ententions are to then run from this 80amp box,out to the shop all of this is behind the 100amp breaker thats in the main.So actually I have two breakers,that are backing this run.I utilized the Siemens box,due to the fact that I didnt need 100 amps out there,and that #4 wire,is much cheaper than #2.........Yes I could have ran the 80amp directly from my main box,but it was getting crowded,and I need more room.So I opted for another box,with it's own 80amp breaker.... So If your still with me,I'll continue.I'm almost to the questions.I figure you need all the info you can get... Sometimes you don't get a second chance to be wrong.I have as I've said two areas,I need some clarification....As to how to do the wire connections.....If it matters ......... the wire run is about 110'.Question One..At the start in the Siemens box,I plan to connect two wires to the 80amp breaker,and the other two to the single bar,that is a common setup.Is this correct??? At the other end ........in the much bigger box inside the shop.Is the mentioned Cutler Hammer 200amp box...Here inlies the Second Question....I entend to run two of the legs of #4 to the main 200amp breaker,and the other two to the two bars,that are vertical on either side.This is a huge box,with about 40 single slots total.... When the building was finished,and I started to get my needs together to make the power connection,I noticed that the two bars where bonded.they had an aluminum flat bar that ran across and connected the two bars via screw attachments.Also the aluminum bar was attached to the box with a green ground screw.Sence this box is receiveing the 220v 4 leg hookup,shouldn't the two bars be seperated??? One as a common,with no electrical conncetion to the box,and the other bar be attached to the box,as a ground?? In other words not bonded.?? Also,I noticed that the wiring done in the box was,done with no seperation between common and ground....In other words,the common and the ground wires,where attached at random to either bar.... They had wired,the box without any attempt,at common and ground seperation..... Is this good?? Should I leave the box wired as it is??Bonded between the two bars?? Or rewire the Romex,which is all 12/2,by the way,so the ground wires go to a ground bar,and the common wires go to a common bar?? This is a lot of typing,and reading to get to the actual questions at hand,but I try....... Thanks for any input...I'm really concerned,about the receiving end of this power run,and there not being a seperation between ground,and common. ........As I said,thanks for any help,I may receive.
 
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  #2  
Old 04-17-07, 12:17 AM
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Starting at your shop (the C-H panel) you need to remove the green screw in the aluminum bar connecting the two neutral (not "common") buses. You then need to purchase and install in accordance with the instructions an "auxiliary equipment grounding bus" for this panel and move all of the bare grounding wires to this new bus.

I hope that all of your #4 conductors are color-coded so that you can differentiate them at either end. The two connected to the 200 amp main breaker should be identified individually with black and red tape. The black conductor will connect to the left-hand (or upper) terminal of the main breaker and the red conductor will connect to the right-hand (or lower) terminal of the main breaker.

The two remaining #4 conductors will be individually marked with white (or grey) tape and green tape. The white conductor will be connected to the neutral bus and the green conductor will be connected to the newly installed equipment grounding bus.


At the 80 Ampere circuit breaker the red and black leads will connect to the 80 ampere breaker in the same manner as at the shop, i.e. the black will connect to the left or upper terminal and the red will connect to the right or lower terminal. The white conductor will be connected to the neutral bus and the green will be connected to an equipment grounding bus that you will need to purchase and install.

In a like manner install the leads from the SERVICE panel 100 Ampere circuit breaker to the input lugs of the Siemens panel. The white lead will connect from the neutral bus in the service panel to the neutral bus of the Siemens panel.

BE SURE TO REMOVE ANY "BONDING" CONNECTION (green screw, terminal or wire) FROM THE SIEMENS NEUTRAL BUS!

The green conductor will run from the neutral in the service panel to the equipment grounding bus you installed in the Siemens panel.

The most important part is that the neutral (white) conductor and the equipment grounding (green) conductor are only connected to the same bus at the main service panel. At every subsequent panel they must be isolated.
 
  #3  
Old 04-17-07, 12:36 AM
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Hopefully I followed along correctly. (editorial note: use paragraphs to break up your posts. It's easier to read and understand that way.)

Before we tackle the questions, let's review the connection between your 200A Square D main panel, and the 125A Siemens subpanel. To do this properly, you need a total of four conductors: 2 Hots, 1 Neutral, and 1 Ground. Since the Siemens is a subpanel, you will need to make sure there is no bond between the neutral and the ground inside this panel. I am assuming the type of conductor you used is #2 THHN or #2 THWN insulated.

Now to the questions.

1. As I said before, the Siemens is a subpanel. You must separate the neutral buss from the ground buss. This means there must not be a bond between the two busses inside the subpanel. If there is a bonding screw that connects the neutral buss to the panel body, it must be removed. Two of the #2 conductors from the main panel will connect the 100A breaker inside the main breaker, to the main terminals of the 125A Siemens subpanel. The other #2 conductor will connect from the neutral buss in the main panel, to the neutral terminal inside the 125A Siemens. A ground conductor of not less than #8 AWG needs to be connected from the main panel to the isolated ground buss of the 125A Siemens subpanel. I suggest using an insulated conductor for the ground.

2. The Cutler-Hammer 200A box in the shop is also a subpanel, and must be wired the same way as I described above for the 125A Siemens subpanel. The ground and neutral busses must be separated. And yes, the neutral and ground conductors from your branch circuits must be separated to their respective busses. Hopefully the conductors are long enough to be separated and reconnected properly. If not, you will have to pigtail the ones that are too short with an extra length of conductor and a wirenut. Sidenote: I'm assuming the #4 conductor is type THWN since it is run through conduit outside.

One other thing. Since this is a remote building, you need to install an additional grounding rod into the ground next to your shop to connect to the shop subpanel to insure a proper grounding path.
 
  #4  
Old 04-17-07, 11:46 AM
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220v to shop

I'm sending this thru the reply post,anyway.Back to the part about starting from the beginning.I posted a part of your comment,it is as follows.

Before we tackle the questions, let's review the connection between your 200A Square D main panel, and the 125A Siemens subpanel. To do this properly, you need a total of four conductors: 2 Hots, 1 Neutral, and 1 Ground. Since the Siemens is a subpanel, you will need to make sure there is no bond between the neutral and the ground inside this panel. I am assuming the type of conductor you used is #2 THHN or #2 THWN insulated.

Firstly .... yes ... I used #2 THWN,to run from the main panel to the Siemens box.Because It is coming from a 100amp breaker in the main.From the Siemens 80amp breaker,on to the shop I ran #4 THWN. ..... Now for a bit of enlightenment...

Firstly,the main box the 200amp Square D,dosen't have a ground bar... It has two Neutral bars.. Also the main box itself is not grounded,via a ground rod.It is I assume grounded thru the meter,which does have a ground rod attached....

My intentions were to run two hot conductors,from the Main 100amp breaker,to the siemen 80 amp breaker subpanel.Then one conductor,from the main Neutral to the siemen Neutral,which is not bonded to the box electrically.The fourth wire from the main to the siemens,was going to be connected to the Square D main box,via a ground connection,screwed into the box body,which I was going to ground,via a new ground rod attached to the box body.from there it will run to the siemens,box body and also be attached via a ground screw to the box body....then also I was going to run another ground rod to the siemens box,and have it attached to the box body via a ground screw.Ending up with the main box grounded via it's own rod,and the Siemens box grounded via it's own rod......

Hopefully this will end up with me running the four conductors to the shop as needed.Two from the Siemens 80amp breaker,one from the Siemens Neutral bar,and one from the attached ground.You see,I'm trying to accomadate the ground bar issue,when there is no ground bar.....

The Siemens box has no seperate ground bar,and the main box has no seperate ground bar.So ground both boxes,and then run the ground conductor out to the shop,I hope will work..... At the shop end,in the 200amp Cutler Hammer box,there is a seperate ground and neutral bar.I also entend to run a seperate ground rod to the ground bar,and have the ground bar bonded to the box.... Of course,in this box the neutral,will not be bonded......Please tell me,this will work.......

I feel that I've added a bit of overkill,to the grounding process,but by golly,I think everything will certainly be grounded...... Albeit maybe not to the tech likeings of the trade.......Again,thanks for any help
 
  #5  
Old 04-17-07, 11:53 AM
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You need a separate ground bar at the first sub panel. Go and buy one. They usually do not come with panels, but are easily purchased and added. This is not an option, it is a necessity.
 
  #6  
Old 04-17-07, 01:56 PM
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Racraft 220v shop

Racraft Moderator ... Hi...I gottcha ....... I'll go find,a ground bar to add to the first subpanel.... So that means from my main,I will run one conductor from the main,neutral bar ?? Is this correct ??? As I mentioned,my main dosen't have a proper ground bar,(the two bars are both neutral)so I guess the ground bar in the first subpanel will be attached to the main neutral.... If you'll verify this being correct,I think I have all the rest,ready to go.Of course also the ground bar that I purchase and install,in the first subpanel,will need to be bonded to the box/case with a ground screw attachment.... correct ?? Thanks .....
 
  #7  
Old 04-17-07, 02:13 PM
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"My intentions were to run two hot conductors,from the Main 100amp breaker,to the siemen 80 amp breaker subpanel."


I thought this was illegal? Am I reading this wrong? Are you talking about running these HOTS from the subpanel main disconnect breaker in your main panel?

Also, when you get the ground buss and screw it into the panel, it is then grounded/bonded to the case itself.
 
  #8  
Old 04-17-07, 02:54 PM
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Where do all the ground wires (from branch circuits) that enter the main panel terminate?
 
  #9  
Old 04-17-07, 05:05 PM
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220v shop

hi,racraft.....In the main panel ..... All of the ground wires from branch circuits,and all the common wires (white) goto the same bar.... This is in the main panel,of which I speak.....There are two bars in the main panel,but both run vertically,and they both attach at the top,to the circuit that the breakers attach to....... hence I say......... there is no ground bar in the main panel.

Just the two neutral bars.........

I agreed,that it would be easy enough to add a ground bar to the Siemen subpanel......

Then I asked,but where do I attach the conductor in the main panel,for the ground..... that will in turn run to the added ground bar in the Siemen subpanel..???????? Sence the Siemen will be serving as a subpanel,it has to be connected as ground back to the main panel..... It cannot serve as it's own ground.....

Sence there is no detecable ground bar in the main panel,just neutral bars.... where do you suppose I will run ground between the main,and the Siemen sub.....?????

I suggested just using a ground lug,in the main,attached to the main box,and run it to the ground bar in the Siemen,(which I will add to the Siemen) sence it has no ground bar at present..... This setup should then provide a ground conductor,on out to the shop...With the ground conductor,ultimately running from the main,thru the Siemen,out to the shop.

That puts all boxes,tied to the same,ground,from the main... ????

I stated the main box itself,has no ground bar in it,nor does it have a connection to a ground rod.The only ground in the main box,comes from the Meter..... The Meter does have a ground running down to a ground rod.

There are three 1/0 cunductors coming from the Meter,into the main,and thats it.Two are tied into the 200amp main breaker bus at the top.One runs to the bottom,and is tied to a lug there.

Both the bars in the Main however,are physically tied at the top,to the main bus.......... hence they must both be neutral.

Hence there is no ground bar in the main.

All I wanted to figure out was....... Where do I attach the conductor,for ground in the main box???

It will then run to the Siemen sub,to provide ground access,on out to the shop.

I know where the ground bar is in the shop subpanel.
I know where the ground bar will be in the Siemen subpanel.
I do not know where to attach a ground conductor,in the main???

I was initally planning on running,just three conductors,from the main box,to the Siemen sub..... Two from the 100amp breaker (hot),and one from the main neutral..... From there(in the Siemen sub),I was going to run two hots,from the 80amp breaker,and run both the neutral,and ground,from the neutral bar.... Thats four conductors in total,out to the sub in the shop....

In the Subpanel in the shop ........... two conductors,of the four (Hots) will run to the 200 amp main.
One conductor,will run to the neutral bar,and the remaining conductor,will run to the ground bar.....

Both of the conductors,that service the neutral and the ground bars,will start from the neutral bar in the Siemens,sub....
They will split in the sub in the shop,with one to the neutral,and one to the ground.......... whewwwwwwwww
 
  #10  
Old 04-17-07, 05:14 PM
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200v shop

Now with all that said........ I know that setup will not work.Because ultimately,If the Neutral bar in the Siemen's sub fails,it will also cause the ground to fail......... So thats no good........

Then I have no choice,but to add a ground bar to the Siemen's sub,as you suggested....... I agree with that.

It's a matter of,just where do I tied the conductor,in the main box,that will run to the ground bar in the Siemen box.
Just adding a ground bar to the Siemen box,alone will not surrfice.... that would cause the Siemen box to be the ground origin.

I need to also connect the ground bar in the Siemen sub,to a ground in the main.
So that the main box,will be the origin of ground....... I really don't know where to attach a ground conductor in the main.... Short of just installing,a ground lug,that attaches to the main box wall,and start the ground run from there..............
 
  #11  
Old 04-17-07, 06:02 PM
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hamx15, did you even bother to read what I wrote in the first response to your initial post?

Here it is again:

The green conductor will run from the neutral in the service panel to the equipment grounding bus you installed in the Siemens panel.

The most important part is that the neutral (white) conductor and the equipment grounding (green) conductor are only connected to the same bus at the main service panel. At every subsequent panel they must be isolated.

The neutral bus in the service panel (your main panel) IS THE GROUND!!! The neutral is grounded at the meter, not the most usual method but it is an accepted method.

NEUTRAL AND GROUND ARE THE SAME IN THE SERVICE PANEL!!!
 
  #12  
Old 04-17-07, 06:43 PM
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furd 220v shop

FURD ......... ok ........I got it.
Yes I did read everything,that everyone has added.

Also ....... I was told at the outstart,by a friend,thats an electrician.Or that is he used to be...... he's long sence retired..........The same thing you have said.( I havent been able to get back to him lately)

The difference being,as you put it,I now understand the connection point.Originally he had told me,to just run the two hots from the main,100amp breaker,along with the neutral,to the Siemen subpanel.Thats what I was going to do..... Everything else,on the other end(the shop) is all connected up.

At this point I was going to have to trim the conductors back on the input end,in order to hook all this up.I had ran them with a good two feet more than I needed,on each end.... I then got to thinking about how bad this was going to be messed up.if I cut these off to run a certain way,and find out that I have to do it differently....,and be short on conductor wire,when I had so much to spare at first.

My electrician friend,has been in the hospital,for surgery,and I wasnt going to go bother him,with this.

So I went out and started to try to make sure all of this is going together correctly. ........ but to say again... you have put me at ease...I'll start with the neutral,from the main.Running to both the neutral,and the ground bar in the siemens sub.From there,I'll make sure,all subpanels after that,are both neutral,and ground seperate.

Again,yes I read what you initially had to say,and it went along with what I had already been told........ Then I read all of the other input from others as well.All I was looking for was a second verification of the main connection,before I cut those conductors off...... Everyone else,had good points to make,or add to the (make sure you do) list.

One last word ..... maybe you'll have some input about this....
With out being told,that the ground conductor,on my 110' run,didn't have to be of the #4 size.....I bought and ran,four conductors,of #4.One being for the ground...... I now know better...... I could have saved a good bit of change,by just running #8 for the ground.In any case that part is history now........ the point... I have considered,for the ease of connection,to the ground bars,to trim off a part of the #4 ends,that's to be used for ground to about the size of a #8.It would facilitate me being able to tie it into the ground bars,via the solid wire connections,rather than having to come up with a place will accept this #4 size wire.Sence #8 would be sufficant for the ground conductor.....Do you see a problem with this idea??????
 
  #13  
Old 04-17-07, 10:06 PM
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I'm sorry I raised my voice (capital letters). I'm also sorry that your friend is in the hospital.

Often I just wish that I could sit down with the person asking questions and talk with them. Or better, be able to be there to help them on their job. This back-and-forth writing is not the best means of communication.

I really wish that you had read a couple of books on the subject before starting this project, it would have given you the questions to ask before purchasing any materials.

I did notice in the beginning that you had run the #4 for the equipment grounding conductor. No harm in that other than to your wallet. You are correct that #8 would have been sufficient with a main breaker of 100 amps or less.


So here it is in one place. From the Square D service panel run a #4 wire, coded white, from the Square D neutral bus to the Siemens neutral bus. Run an additional wire, coded green, from the Square D neutral bus to the Siemens equipment ground bus. This green-coded wire may be any size #8 or larger. Be sure to remove any bonding screw or jumper from the neutral bus in the Siemens panel.

At your Cutler-Hammer panel remove any bonding screw or jumper from the neutral bus and make sure that all of the equipment grounding (bare copper) wires from your outlets are connected to the equipment grounding bus that you purchased and installed. Connect the white-coded incoming cable (the #4 from the Siemens panel) to the Cutler-Hammer neutral and the green-coded wire to the equipment grounding bus.

You also need to drive an 8 foot long copper grounding rod into the ground as near as possible to the Cutler-Hammer panel and connect it to the equipment grounding bus with no smaller than #6 bare or green insulated wire.

To connect the #4 wire to the equipment grounding bus at both the Cutler-Hammer and Siemens panels I would prefer that you strip off at least a couple of inches of insulation, separate the strands into two bundles and attach each bundle through one hole in the bus bar using two adjacent holes. It is not necessary for the insulation to butt up against the bus bar but trim off any excess copper strands on the other side of the bus bar.
 
  #14  
Old 04-17-07, 11:08 PM
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furd 220v shop

hey .......no biggie about the capitol letters.......

I hate this kinda help network also,but guess what.... It works most of the time.
As I said,I was told to start off from the neutral bar on the main... I just need to check,before I really screwed up.

Also I had considered,parting the wires on the #4 ground wire,and running them thru the regular holes in the bar.So that will work for me.

I'm not out of the woods yet,but the path has been cleared enough,so all I gotta do is move forward.

At this point I'm convenced as to where and what I want to do.

I've got to figure a way,to actually connect the neutral conductor,in the main.I'm hoping I can find room enough to double up on the lug at the neutral bar.

It already has a 1/0 wire in it now,and hopefully I can sqeeze one #2 in with it.Sence this starts from a 100amp breaker in the main panel,I'll start with three #2's......... Two to the two hot lugs on the breaker,and one to the lug on the neutral bar,doubled up with the 1/0 input.I'll get it done,cause now I'm sure what I want to do........

I wished these bars had an extra lug added ,one at each end of the bar........ that would really help,with trying to run these subpanels,set up just as a jumper.I ought to start building those ........... hell I bet everyone would want them.... What could the cost be,a buck at best,just to add another aluminum lug.........I think,you can add lugs to a bar..... I think they,can be screwed on,in place of one of the regular wire holding screws......I think I remember seeing a large lug mounted this way in the middle of a bar,rather than on the end.It had a phillips head screw in the middle,screwed down in one of the holes where a regular wire screw once was........ It would be really great,if I could find something like that.......i'll call around to the local dist and see what I can find. By the way,I'm using the term (lug) loosly..... I'm not at all sure if thats a proper name.... I refer to the big aluminum block,thats found usually on one end of a bar,that is drilled thru,and has a large set screw in the middle,to bite the wire.I'm calling that a lug....... Hey man ......... thanks for everything .....
 
  #15  
Old 04-18-07, 07:28 AM
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You are not allowed to double up neutral connections.
 
  #16  
Old 04-18-07, 01:53 PM
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220v to shop

well.......I called around to my local elect supply shop this morning,and it looks like I'm in luck.It's far from local,but it's all I have.

It seems there is such a thing as a screw on/bolt on,lug connection,that can be added to a bar.
Sounds like it just screws in place of one of the bar set screws.

I'll have to drive into town and check this out.Want be going today,it rained all night,and after the trenching work that was done,it's too soft to stand and work around my main.
I'll give it a couple of days to dry up.

I'll be buying the ground bar to add to the first sub (the Siemens) at the same place..... So I already had to go in for that.... It's about 35 miles one way,and that dearly raises the price on a small item,with me drivin a 4x4 dodge.... maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that part... Ha...Ha

Thanks ----all ---- for your kind help.... I plan to be back to let ya know if anything blew up.......If ya don't hear back from me,don't worry,no need to send flowers......... I want mind.
 
  #17  
Old 04-18-07, 02:27 PM
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220v to shop

john nelson,furd,racraft ....... anyone.
Dang it there is one more question.
This morn as I talked to the local elect supply shop... I mentioned the ground rod,being applied at the final end (at the shop)..... This is what was mentioned by furd in his closing last post....

I need to reenter this area of comment.... In the conversation this morn,with (as I said) the local supply shop.....I was told not to add the ground rod at the shop.
All ground conductors,according to these people,need to go back to the main panel.
If I add a ground rod at the final,shop end,it would stop the breaker,at the main from tripping..... That would include the 110' cunductor run.I would still obviously have a breaker at the main,that would kill all power,from the main.Due to all of this being tied to the 100amp from the main.
but installing a ground rod at the final box in the shop,could remove the breaker from service if the wire run,in the ground was,damaged.
Or so that was his point..... I was advised to not install a ground rod at the shop panel,so that all,ground would be going back to the main.

I can see that I'd like the closest ground avail,out at the shop...
That would be to install a ground rod,at the shop panel...
I feel it would be the most effective,if there was a need for it's function due to a problem.....
On the other hand,I can see his point about not installing a ground rod at the shop panel.....
He pointed out I'd lose (possibly)the function of the main panel breaker tripping if I did that. ......... So dang it ........ Now what ya say ??

I'am so sorry that I can't seem to add any help to my own situstion at all.
........ Now I gotta sort out this ground rod thing.

If it matters ........ I'll point out that.....yes.... In the 200amp panel inside the shop,there is a main installed..... A big 200amp'r.......
 
  #18  
Old 04-18-07, 03:01 PM
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Okay, I don't have time to read this whole thread, but I'll offer a few comments in the hope that they might apply.

If you have a subpanel in a different structure than the main panel, then it needs its own grounding rods. If they are in the same structure, then the subpanel does not get its own grounding rods. Essentially, every structure needs its own grounding rods.

Grounding rods do not obviate the need for the grounding conductor between buildings. These two things serve different purposes. The grounding conductor between buildings is there to handle events inside the structure, such as wiring faults. It is this wire that helps breakers trip in certain situations.

Grounding rods have nothing to do with whether or not a breaker trips. Grounding rods provide protection against external, not internal, events. This includes things like electrical storms and downed power lines.

If you don't understand the difference between the GEC (grounding electrode conductor) and the EGC (equipment grounding conductor), you'll be confused forever. Study up on these two.
 
  #19  
Old 04-18-07, 06:17 PM
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The "grounding" of electrical systems is a complex subject. I have more than one book on the subject and they run more than 100 pages. Probably no single subject within the electrical field is more commonly misunderstood. I do not claim to have anywhere near complete understanding of the subject.

What Mr. Nelson wrote is the code. Any subpanel within the same structure as the SERVICE panel does NOT have a separate grounding electrode (rod) but any subpanel in a DETACHED building MUST have its own grounding electrode.

In short, the information your electrical supply shop gave you is incorrect.
 
  #20  
Old 04-18-07, 06:21 PM
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220v shop

ok.....got it....thank you .... Sir,John Nelson "moderator",I say that with a touch of honest feeling. Thank you
So I will purchase a ground rod while getting the other finishing necessities.I will also need probably 8ft of ground wire,solid I suppose.....I will make sure this ground wire runs from the rod, and into the panel connected to the ground bar.

At this time,I have no more questions....I have tried my best to keep this from happening,but so goes life..... I guess now I know it all. Ha....Ha
There's always 2morrow though.....

Thanks again everyone ,John nelson,furd,racraft,thanks to all .... for your patience ........thats right ....... please teach me how to fish,so I can win the money next year..... I'll let ya know as soon as the lights come on.
 
  #21  
Old 04-18-07, 06:33 PM
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Location: Wet side of Washington state.
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When you purchase the ground rod get one 5/8 inch in diameter (they also make 1/2 in ones but they may not always pass code) and also get an "acorn" type clamp for the rod and wire.

The grounding wire (properly called a Grounding Electrode Conductor or GEC) does not need to be solid nor does it have to be bare. It does need to be at least of #6 size, if insulated it need to be green and it needs to be one continuous piece without any splices. If you have any of the #4 wire that you used for the run between panels you may remove the insulation and use it for the GEC.
 
  #22  
Old 04-19-07, 12:12 PM
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220v shop

It's me again.... I do have a question about code,and placement of panels,or subs.When it concerns how close to the meter it can be placed...

Everything that comes into this property is buried...Power,CableTV, and phone.
It all comes to a central local,built from 4x4's,and cross members 2x6's.All wraped in that vinyl white lattace work..... nice and pretty.

The width of this area is about 5'. In the middle is the Power Meter,with it's feed coming from directly below.To the right of the meter,(about 1')it's attached to my main service panel,via the main 200amp breaker at the top....
Below this to the right,is the Telephone area,and the Cable TV,connections,next to that.

To the left of the Power Meter horizontally,is about 2' of space.
This is where the Siemen 80amp subpanel will be secured. I'm trying to save room horizontally,incase i need to ever add another subpanel. the Siemen subpanel,is small....1' tall,6.5" wide,4.5 deep.... I have room left for another,beside it if I need it...and probably will eventually....

I'm sure at one time,I saw mention,somewhere on the net........that there was a code for how close a panel of any kind could be placed next to the Power Meter.As I said My Main,is about 1' to the right.
As it is at the moment,the conduit,and wire have all been set in place to attach my Siemen sub.The attachment as it is now,will put the Siemen subpanel,about 1",to the left of the Power Meter box. Sence they do not connect physically,there is not conduit between the two.

Before I trim off the excess,#4 wire needed to connect the Siemen subpanel,I wanted to check,on this.I can move the Siemen subpanel,farther to the Left,away from the Power meter,but it will be a large pain to do so,at this point.
I have called around to local,Elect contractors,trying to get some kinda input on this....I was only successful,with reaching one.He said "I think you'll be ok"...... Again,after trimming,the #4's,I'll be all messed up.Trying to change anything.

Here's the question ........ Do you know of any code,stating that there is a minimum distance,that a subpanel (or however you want to word it) can be placed along side the Power meter ?? I know that this area of code,could be a "State to State" prefferance....... I'm trying to avoid (obviously) calling any form of local inspector,for any help.....I don't want to run the risk,of opening that can of worms,and shooting myself in both feet....... If there is no Definitive answer to this,I'll understand.........

Footnote:I recall as I said seeing mention of this,but don't remember what state,they were in..... that incase the Power company,or whoever,needed to change out the Power meter box,they would have room,for any possible,case size (Dementional)changes that may have come about. It seems to me I recall,2" of space on either side,mentioned,as code.
 
  #23  
Old 04-19-07, 01:12 PM
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This bothers me:

"The attachment as it is now,will put the Siemen subpanel,about 1",to the left of the Power Meter box. Sence they do not connect physically,there is not conduit between the two."

How are you connecting the Siemens panel to the Square D service panel? You must have some kind of conduit between the two.


This actually brings a couple of other points.

Is your Square D service panel outside? Why are you installing the the Siemens panel with the 80 Ampere circuit breaker in the first place? Why didn't you run the conduit from the shop directly to the Square D service panel and change the spare 100 Ampere circuit breaker for an 80 Ampere circuit breaker?

There ARE certain minimum clearances to the sides and front of electrical panels that must be maintained but I am unaware of any minimum clearances between panels other than that necessary to allow the covers to fit properly.

Is it possible for you to take a digital picture (more are always better) of your service panel, meter, sub panel and telephone connection and post it on a photo hosting site with the URL posted here?
 
  #24  
Old 04-19-07, 07:46 PM
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220v to shop

furd ..... I can't take a dig pic,I have no cam..... but I have drawing,a good drawing.
But down at the bottom,of the page it says..."I may not post attachments" I'm glad you wanta see this.Its really not that much to it.But my main,is very full....... And so I decided to put up a sub,running from my main........on a 100amp,then dropping to 80amp at the sub,on out to the shop....This will leave me one double space left in the main.......Right now I'm trying to figure out how to attach this drawing,but I guess I can't,I have it in a .jpg format..
 
  #25  
Old 04-19-07, 08:02 PM
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220v to shop

furd ....... I answered part of what you asked......... I plan to add another buildg. this whats to be my hang out,and clean shop ..... no sawing,no grindig,no nuttin really....... Out on the other side of the property,there's to ba a 30x30 on a slab..... It will be fed directly from my main....... I just opted to put up the sub,because these two jobs together,would comletely fill my main...... It is as I said a 200amp main.......,and a large box,but it dosen't have very many slots for breakers....... Ya see,if you havent figured it out,I am in a trailer..... a double wide..... no I didn't put it here,nor select this dang main box.... I'd never have done that.The one more buildng,will complete everything as far as I'm concerned.... So running the sub,will let me do the other shop,and still have two slots left over,for breakers....

The tie in between the Main and the sub,one on one side of the meter,and one on the other side,will be via the top.... After all the Main is fed from the side,so the top is free.
I will come up from the main,hit a left hand LB run 2.5' hit a right hand LB and back down into the top of the 80amp Siemens.
The LB's are right angle,two hole models.Thsi will be thru 2" Sch80 PVC.
The bottom ports (knockouts)in the Main,are all full,except for two small ones...The right side of the Main,can't be used due to the main being next to a 4x4 support post on that side......... Grumble Grumble

I do wish you could see the drawing........ hey I can send it directly to you,at your private email??
 
  #26  
Old 04-19-07, 09:56 PM
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220v shop

furd ........ you said Is it possible for you to take a digital picture (more are always better) of your service panel, meter, sub panel and telephone connection and post it on a photo hosting site with the URL posted here?"

you see there is no URL shown... I've just now noticed you mentioning posting to another site ........ hey

I'll look around and see what I can find...
I'll find some place to post the drawing ....... I think I can post it thru Yahoo.

I'll get back to ya
 
  #27  
Old 04-19-07, 10:21 PM
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Location: Wet side of Washington state.
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Nope, I had no idea you were in a mobile home. I also had no idea that your service panel was virtually full. The subpanel (the Siemens) makes sense now. I know that it is too late at this stage but I would have probably put in a sub with LOTS of room for more breakers so that it would handle anything additional I might want to add.

It sounds as if you thought this out rather well and only had trouble with the specifics of the wiring.

Good luck and enjoy your shop.
 
  #28  
Old 07-23-07, 09:13 AM
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Thanks long in coming

Ok....... Delayed and Delayed ..... finally though,thanks to Furd,John nelson,and everyone else,I have finally got the shop wired and finished.... thanks ever so much for your patience with me ........ I do however,have another problem... I will be doing another .....Thread ....... I think compared to the wiring Questions,this one will be simple........ Thanks again guys.
 
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