60 AMP GFCI 2 pole at main panel

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  #1  
Old 06-14-07, 03:18 PM
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60 AMP GFCI 2 pole at main panel

I am installing a spa / hot tub. I have ran 3 #4awg cables in a 1 inch PVC conduit through the attic from the main panel out to a 60 amp disconect on the side of the house, from there it routes underground to the spa/hot tub. I have a 60 amp GFCI 2 pole breaker to install at the panel, I belive the pigtail on the breaker attaches to the nuetral bar at the panel, is this correct? Also the 2 hots tie to the breaker so does the 3rd wire to the spa go to the nuetral bar or to the ground bar, which are are isolated at the panel.

Thanks
 
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  #2  
Old 06-14-07, 03:24 PM
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The neutral from the spa goes to the neutral connection on the GFCI breaker.
 
  #3  
Old 06-14-07, 03:30 PM
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So the nuetral from the spa ties to the pigtail on the breaker? Do they also tie to the nuetral bus bar?
 
  #4  
Old 06-14-07, 03:32 PM
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No. The neutral from the spa connects to the neutral connection on the breaker. This is NOT the same as the pigtail that gets connected to the neutral buss.
 
  #5  
Old 06-14-07, 03:35 PM
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I am confused. This is a 2 pole breaker for a 60 amp 240 volt supply. It has 2 screws for wire connection and 1 pigtale. I thought it was like any other 2 pole breaker, where the 2 hots go under the screws?
 
  #6  
Old 06-14-07, 03:36 PM
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A 240 volt GFCI breaker has THREE connections. Two for the hot wires and one for the neutral wire.

The neutral HAS to go through the breaker. How do you expect it to measure the neutral current if the neutral does not go through the breaker?
 
  #7  
Old 06-14-07, 03:44 PM
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Right it has 3 connections, 2 are screws that say Load/ charge. 1 is a pigtale that says panel / nuetral.

I belive that i connect the 2 hots going to the spa to the 2 screws that say load. I belive I connect the pig tale to the nuetral bus of the panel. That does not leave anywhere on the breaker to connect the 3rd line that goes to the spa.
 
  #8  
Old 06-14-07, 03:45 PM
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A 240 volt GFCI breaker has THREE connections. Two for the hot wires and one for the neutral wire.

I do not know what you have, but it does NOT sound like a 240 volt GFCI breaker, at least not as you are describing it.
 
  #9  
Old 06-14-07, 03:48 PM
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There should be THREE places to physically land wires on the breaker. Two for the hots and one for the neutral. Then, the pigtail lands on the neutral buss.

Do you have the instructions that no doubt came with the breaker?
 
  #10  
Old 06-14-07, 03:55 PM
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Hmmm I have a square D QO260GFI
that i bought here http://www.allbreakers.com/store.asp/pg!products/specific!jprqoqppc

It has 2 poles, so what am i missing?
 
  #11  
Old 06-14-07, 03:59 PM
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No doubt that the instructions did NOT come with the breaker, thats why i am asking the questions cause it seems wierd to me
 
  #12  
Old 06-14-07, 04:21 PM
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I went to sqaure d web site and found this pdf file http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/QO-QOB%20Circuit%20Breakers/QO-EPD/48840-473-01.pdf

The 60 amp model of this breaker does not have a place for the load nuetral to tie down. If I read the diagram correctly they show the pigtail going to the panel, the 3rd load wire is actualy a ground going to the ground bus and tying the ground bus to the nuetral bus at the panel. Can anyone confirm that? I cant paste the diagram here
 
  #13  
Old 06-14-07, 05:02 PM
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Using the diagram in the PDF that you posted you would connect the neutral where indicated by the letter B. Look for another screw terminal under the ones for the Hot wires.
 
  #14  
Old 06-14-07, 06:12 PM
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The diagram at the URL you posted clearly indicated where the load neutral connects. It is marked with a letter B.
 
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Old 06-14-07, 06:17 PM
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According to that pdf, the 60 amp breaker that he said he has, does not have the LOAD NEUTRAL screw. According to thbe diagram, only the 15-50amp breakers have that third screw.

Another discussion about this same thing is on Mike Holts page

http://www.mikeholt.com/cgi-bin/codeforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=008656;p=

He is going to have to find another 60amp GFCI breaker that does have the third screw.
 
  #16  
Old 06-14-07, 06:22 PM
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Mark, you are right. My bad. The wording does indicate that the 60 amp breaker has no neutral connection. If that is the case, then it is not the right breaker for this application. Take it back and find one that has a neutral.
 
  #17  
Old 06-15-07, 05:19 AM
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PCboss- Read ALL of the diagram, the 60 amp clearly shows no connection for the nuetral.

RAcraft- the diagram and the words clearly show that there is no connection for the nuetral on the 60 amp model. Why do you say it is the wrong breaker for the application?

HotinOKC - Thanks for taking the time to look at the PDF, why do you say I should take the breaker back and get another one?

The main panel is Sqaure D, thats why i went with a square d breaker. If I was to get another 60 amp breaker that has a nuetral connection does anyone know of a breaker that will work in a Q0 square d panel AND would I need to run a 4th wire, ( 2 hots, 1 nuetral and 1 ground) for the new breaker to work?

I only have 3 wires at the spa, as stated in my first post. Thats what the manufacture, Sundance, told me I needed as well as a GFCI. My question was where to hook up the pigtail form the breaker and where to hook up the 3rd wire at the panel, the nuetral bus or the ground bus.

From the Square D FAQ website:

Where do you connect the load neutral wire on a QO260GFI?

Answer: The QO260GFI does not have a load neutral connection and is to be used on 240vac 2 wire applications only. Not to be used on 120/240 vac applications where two hot wires and a neutral is required. If a 60 amp GFI breaker is needed on a 120/240 vac system, divide the 120/240 vac loads and put the 240 vac loads on the QO260GFI and put the 120 vac loads on a single pole GFI breaker like the QO115GFI .

From what I see on the Square D diagram, ( please look at figure 1) it shows the pigtail going to the nuetral buss, the 3rd wire from the load going to the ground bus and tieing the nuetral and ground bus together at the panel, right? Is this acceptable, will it cause other problems? Will it actualy provide ground fault protection
 
  #18  
Old 06-15-07, 05:42 AM
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Your spa may only need 240 volts. That's fine. However, you need a 120 volt circuit as well. This is at least required for the receptacle that must be located near the spa (observe proper spacing).

I am confused by your setup. Where are you installing this GFCI breaker? Is it in the main panel? If so, connect the neutral pigtail to the neutral buss. You won't have a neutral to the disconnect. The ground wire gets connected to the ground bus.

Then install a 120 volt circuit for the convenience receptacle. This 120 volt circuit can be GFCI protected at the breaker or at the receptacle itself.

As an aside, I have never heard of a general purpose 240 volt GFCI breaker that does not have a neutral connection. To me this makes no sense.
 
  #19  
Old 06-15-07, 06:11 AM
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Yes the GFCI breaker is to be installed at the main panel as indicated in the title of the post. From there the cables route through the attic to an exterior wall with a 60 amp service disconnect, from there a short underground run to the spa for final connection.

I am not sure why you say I will need a 120 volt circuit for a convenience recptacle to be located near the spa, it's not a requiremnt of the spa manufacture and there is no need for one in the area that spa is being installed.

It appears that all the square d Q0 breakers up to 50 amp do have the nuetral connection, why the 60 amp is differnt I have no idea. How it works this way, I have no Idea.

Is there going to be any problems with bonding the nuetral and ground buss together back at the panel as the square d instruction PDF indicates to do?
 
  #20  
Old 06-15-07, 06:15 AM
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The Neutral and the ground bus at a main panel are already bonded or mixed. As for the convienence recepticle at the spa this is required by the NEC for service personel.
 
  #21  
Old 06-15-07, 06:20 AM
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You have no neutral at your disconnect.

At your main panel the neutral and ground should already be connected, if not then they are connected elsewhere.

You are required by code to have a receptacle near the spa. When your installation is inspected, you will need one. Per code it there are restriction on how close to the spa it can be and on the maximum distance. You should already know this. This is called a convenience receptacle and is required because people like to have radios or CD players or whatever nearby when they relax. The NEC does not want you running an extension cord from inside the house. The distance requirement is so that you can't adjust the radio while still in the tub.

Because you bought a disconnect with no neutral, you will need to run a separate circuit. You may be able to add these two wires to the same conduit (and share the ground) and then branch from the disconnect to the receptacle. Whether you make the receptacle a GFCI receptacle or protect it using a GFCI breaker is up to you.

If it were my setup, I would use a different disconnect. One that had provisions for the 120 volt circuit.
 
  #22  
Old 06-15-07, 06:25 AM
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Thanks hbsparky- There are 2 existing GFCI recpetacles in the area, one is on the wall by the new 60 amp service disconnect, about 12 ft from the spa and another on the wall on the other side of the pool about 30 ft away from the spa. Again both existing on their own 20 amp 120volt ckt

So if the ground and nuetral bus are already tied together at the panel then I dont have to run a jumper between them as shown on the square d pdf file, correct?

And this configuration will actually meet NEC and provide ground fault protection?
 
  #23  
Old 06-15-07, 06:37 AM
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Thanks racraft- As indicated the convience outlets exist, are GFCI, and cant be reached while in the spa. I thought you were saying that i had to supply additional 120volt circuit at the spa which yes would require both a nuetral and a ground.

If i went with your setup and change the disconnect that would also require installing a 4th wire , to have 2 hots, nuetral and ground, correct?
 
  #24  
Old 06-15-07, 06:46 AM
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The receptacle 12 feet from the spa meets the code for a convenience receptacle, as long as it is GFCI protected. The receptacle 30 feet from the spa is too far away from the spa to qualify as a convenience receptacle.

Since one of those receptacles qualify, you don't need to run another.

Your setup is unusual in that your spa does not have 120 volt loads. Many spas use the 240 volts for the heater and the pump, but also have lights that are 120 volts.

Yes, if you needed 120 volts for the spa then you would need a fourth wire, a neutral.

Your GFCI breaker needs a neutral. While it does not (or cannot) support one on the load side, it needs one for it's internal circuitry to work. The schematic they supply shows the neutral and ground busses connected because they are usually connected in the main panel. They are connected somewhere in your setup, so don;'t be too concerned if you can't see it. Connect the neutral wire of the breaker to the neutral buss, which may or may not also be the ground buss.
 
  #25  
Old 06-15-07, 07:50 AM
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Smile Thanks everyone!

Thanks racraft- Yes the receptacle is a GFCI so we are good to go with that. The spa lights are all fiber optic LED, they must have some kind of a stepdown transformer or power supply integral to the spa and it also has built in CD/Radio/speakers and I pod docking station, again there must be some internal low voltage supply for those too.

So the GFCI breaker gets it's nuetral reference at the panel via the pigtail and I dont have to worry about a jumper between the ground bus and the nuetral bus becuase they are tied together already somewhere in the existing system.

Thanks to everyone for their input and help in this wierd setup!!!!
 
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