Ground in meter pan ?

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Old 09-11-07, 04:59 PM
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Ground in meter pan ?

Hi everyone! Was in the process of upgrading my service 100 to 200 anyways I already ran #4 from the water main to the panel ground bar.

my question is when I put in the 2 ground rods in do I run the #4 to the main panel ground bar or like my neighbors recently upgraded main the ran a conduit for the ground out of the meter so it must be tied into the nuetral?
 
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Old 09-11-07, 05:11 PM
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The Neutral and ground SHALL be bonded together in ONLY 1 Place.
So if it is the panel thats it. If it's the meter then thats it. NOT both.

The POCO usualy will tell you. EX: In NH. you bond at the meter. Then 4 wires to the main panel . Ground and the neutral isolated.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 05:13 PM
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In your main panel, the ground and neutral bars will be the same (connected) and they will both be connected to the service entry neutral.

Are you sure your neighbor doesn't have a combination meter/main breaker box?

Whether the meter pan gets grounded or not is generally a local decision up to the poco. I presume it would be up to the poco if you can run the ground rods straight out of the meter pan - someone with more experience will probably be able to answer more definitively.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 05:31 PM
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lets talk about this

"The Neutral and ground SHALL be bonded together in ONLY 1 Place.
So if it is the panel thats it. If it's the meter then thats it. NOT both."

I'm of the impression that the meter pan must be connected to the neutral in all cases. This is to prevent the metal case from becoming energized with an internal short. Obviously there will be other, really big issues when this occurs! Since you can't really rely on a ground rod (only) for short clearing and there is only 3 wires at the meter pan, this pretty much means the neutral must be connected to the box at that point. Working to the load center, the same argument prevails. How else to make the box safe, then to bond to neutral? This does assume the very common practice of using pvc for the conduit between the meter pan and the load center.
I have hear before this argument of "bond at only one place". Could the NEC define this "place" to mean the service equipment? Unless the meter pan and the load center are connected with RMC and/or share the same grounding electrodes, I don't see how else to positively ground the enclosures.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 05:55 PM
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I see your point.

From the ground to the neutral (common) in the meter,
You are essentialy grounding the POCOs service, thats the premice for the NH req.. You now may remove your panel and they still have a ground.

So yes now the meter can is groundED/bondED.
In this manner, the panels groundING bar and neutral bar are seperate, no bonding screw installed in panel(ground to can, Neutral isolated).

Next. 3 wire to meter (yes neut lug is connected to can)- 3 wire to panel. Bonding screw installed in panel. Ground wire from rods,water, to neutral bar. This bonds the feed. But if the panel removed, utility looses your ground. ( they do depend on "your" ground)
 
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Old 09-11-07, 06:02 PM
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I have had different POCOs require either of the following;



the pan is grounded with a seperate EGC

nothing is attached to the meter pan (which I do not like for the reasons telecomm guy explained) with the exception of his belief that if the pan is connected to the ground rod or other ground electrodes. If a EGC is connected to the pan, it will also be connected to the neutral conductor by virtue of ALL grounding and grounded conductors (both EGC's and GEC's) by the bond in the service panel. (which is the correct and only place they should be bonded). I believe 250.24 (C) supports this as well.

I also have a problem with the EGC/GEC bond being in the meter as well. This is effectivel locked and as such is not accessible without defeating the lock(seal) on the meter cover. If is required inspection/maintainance, it would require the seal to be removed.

as well, I have never had a POCO allow a GEC to enter the meter pan.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 06:27 PM
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My comments are based on resi apps.

In Ma. for a very long time we just came from the rod to the meter, then from the panel to the water and jumped the meter, We are responsible from the weather head down.

Now, just across the border (small states) NE & NW the Poco gives you the meter can and you take it from there down, Bond in it.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 06:52 PM
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So is it possible in my neighbors setup the Ground Rods are connected to the Nuetral in the Meter and in the Main the Water ground and Nuetral busses are isolated?

Right now my Nue/gnd are bonded in the panel and connected to the water pipe W/meter jumped

It is my understanding that the Ground rod requirment by NEC is a supplement to the MAIN ground from the water pipe so if the water pipe is changed to plastic or removed for some reason you have the backup ground.

I think I'm going to run the #4 in a conduit from outside to in and connect to the ground bar and be done with it. The only problem i see with this is the pan is not grounded. BTW the pan is a bypass type same as my neighbor.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 06:53 PM
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The meter pan and panels are BOTH bonded. Unless you have some strange meter pan with a ground AND neutral bar I can't see how you could do it any other way. Unless of course you are using a meter/main.

In my area they do NOT want ANY GEC connections in the meter pan. Technically they become inaccessible once inside the meter pan so right there you have a violation. Very few people can legally open a meter pan in my area.
Both water bond/ground and ground rod/Ufer connections are made in the main panel/disconnect.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
The meter pan and panels are BOTH bonded. Unless you have some strange meter pan with a ground AND neutral bar I can't see how you could do it any other way. Unless of course you are using a meter/main.

In my area they do NOT want ANY GEC connections in the meter pan. Technically they become inaccessible once inside the meter pan so right there you have a violation. Very few people can legally open a meter pan in my area.
Both water bond/ground and ground rod/Ufer connections are made in the main panel/disconnect.
No my meter pan is straight forward hot lugs and nuetral only. The only requirement of my POCO is the meter be a bypass type. So it has a metal disco arm inside. I will run to my main with that grounding conductor. Thanks.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 07:29 PM
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rod to the pan here

In florida, our POCO has us run a ground rod to the meter pan. So, you can see some local variation on this. In my mind, the more connections done to earth, the better. The pole has a rod also. The panel typically goes to UFER and/or copper water pipe in my area. Florida gets more than average lightning hits, this could be a reason.

Interesting point on the inspection of the GEC in a locked up meter box. Also, in my area, the inspector puts on a green sticker and only then can the POCO lock the box.
 
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Old 09-11-07, 08:01 PM
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Well, I think we have done our part. We now have John totaly confused!

Check your POCO, We all like it (ground) to go to the panel, bond there.

Remember the supplemental ground (water pipe/rod/ufer) is not extra ground Just ground "insurance".
 
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Old 09-12-07, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lectriclee View Post
Well, I think we have done our part. We now have John totaly confused!

Check your POCO, We all like it (ground) to go to the panel, bond there.

Remember the supplemental ground (water pipe/rod/ufer) is not extra ground Just ground "insurance".

LOL me being confused is just normal. I do like as much insurance built in especially when it comes to power.
 
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