To twist or not to twist

Reply

  #1  
Old 09-16-07, 02:42 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
To twist or not to twist

If I am not mistaken, I believe I have read where you are not to twist the stripped ends of Romex wires together first. That rather you are are to put them together and nut them that way.

Yet when I go into electrical boxes, I more often than not find them twisted together.

And say you have 3 Romex and one stranded (like up in the ceiling box where you are joining a light) you wish to nut together; isn't the stranded wire less likely to be able to pull out if the romex are all twisted together first?
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 09-16-07, 02:50 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
This can grow into a 100 post thread so if it gets closed, don't feel bad. This question has been brought up numerous times in thepast.

The outcome of to twist or not to twist is a matter of personal opinion.

I personally do not twist them, but there is nothing wrong with doing so if you so choose.

If one is tranded, I would twist that around 1 of the solids just to make sure.
 
  #3  
Old 09-16-07, 03:01 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
OKC is right about the thread topic.

I don;t deal with a lot of solid so I never twist. It seems that many that use solid wire like to twist. The one bene I find is that you can twist them (not even a whole lot) and then trim the ends even.

If you follow the directions on the wire nut, they generally say to twist them on until the wires are twisted once or twice around so even if you do not twist prior, the become twisted from that action and it is difficult to tell when they were twisted when you pull them apart.

Regardless, it is a good practice to pull on each individual wire to assure they are actually in the bunch. I have had many times where one of them pushed back and did not get caught up in the nut. That is also why I do not like to use the nuts to their max capacity. They tend to not grab all the wires all the time.
 
  #4  
Old 09-16-07, 03:20 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by nap View Post
OKC is right about the thread topic.
I should have researched backthreads then? It amazes me then how there are so many repeat new posts on how to wire up ceiling fans in that particular subforum. Amongst other issues like bathfans, dimmer switches, 3-way wiring, etc.
 
  #5  
Old 09-16-07, 03:27 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 8,629
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by nap View Post
If you follow the directions on the wire nut, they generally say to twist them on until the wires are twisted once or twice around so even if you do not twist prior, the become twisted from that action and it is difficult to tell when they were twisted when you pull them apart.
I've thought of that myself. But I really CAN tell. There maybe 5 tight twists of the copper only, and the insulated wire behind the nut is not twisted at all.

Plus I've watched licensed electricians pre-twist wire with their Kleins, and have wondered why they are doing that when I could have sworn I have read just to insert the wires into the wire and to NOT twist them together first.
 
  #6  
Old 09-16-07, 03:38 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I've thought of that myself. But I really CAN tell. There maybe 5 tight twists of the copper only, and the insulated wire behind the nut is not twisted at all.
Then, I suggest, they are not installing the nuts as required. The wire will twist when installing them to Ideal's directions on their packaging. I would have to run out to my van to check but I am pretty sure they say to twist until the wires are twisted a time or two.

Another benefit to twisting is is keeps the wires together when you are trying to put the wire nut on there. Sometimes this is more difficult that one would think with the wires splaying out all over the place.
 
  #7  
Old 09-16-07, 03:48 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
I should have researched backthreads then? It amazes me then how there are so many repeat new posts on how to wire up ceiling fans in that particular subforum. Amongst other issues like bathfans, dimmer switches, 3-way wiring, etc.

ecman, you have a PM.

Reposting questions happens all the time and we will answer people's questions even if it has been asked a zillion times.

Most of the time, people can search for their question using the forums search option, and under the topic that it falls in, and find what their looking for. Sometimes their searches will not bring up what they are looking for and start a post.

Either way, it's not a big deal to us if we see a post that has been asked a thousand times.

 
  #8  
Old 09-16-07, 03:59 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ecman51,

the debate about the twist the wire before wirenuts we are not alone on this forum it did happend in few other forums as well as what HotinOKC saying here, this kind of question do often come up and it kinda getting a routeine here lol ,

but really if you have combation of soild and straided wires make sure the straded wire is little longer and kinda lead ahead of soild wires when you twist it in with the proper wirenut size it will lock in pretty good and give a few extra twist after you feel very frim [ sp ] and shake it a little to make sure it dont come loose.

most wirenuts box will tell you the correct size and typical short instructions

Merci , Marc
 
  #9  
Old 09-16-07, 05:39 PM
Speedy Petey's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,455
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I don't think I've EVER Seen a package of wirenuts that specifically says NOT to pre-twist. Most say "pre-twisting not necessary".

The bottom line is if you do not pre-twist the splice should look the same in the end as if you did pre-twist. Understand?

The wirenut is supposed to do the twisting. Unfortunately, even many staunch non-twisters don't even do it right. Even seasoned electricians.
I can't tell you how many splices I have had come completely apart as soon as the nut is removed. This is NOT supposed to happen.

I DO pre-twist.
 
  #10  
Old 09-16-07, 07:40 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Boston, MA.
Posts: 2,113
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Wink Aaaaaaaarrrrrrgggggg!!!

OH NOOOOOOO!!!!!

#If I am not mistaken, I believe I have read where you are not to twist [email protected]

Mistaken- Personal preference. (depending on the equipment (nuts))

#say you have 3 Romex and one stranded #

Twist the solid and lay in the stranded, It will twist its' self.



Now,
Grounds up, or down?

Plate screws , vertical or horizontal?
 
  #11  
Old 09-16-07, 07:58 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by lectriclee View Post
Now,
Grounds up, or down?

Plate screws , vertical or horizontal?


Just don'tgo there there were tons of debate going on for long time i know in one forum that debate it went on almost forever we end up lock that one up after about 30+ pages i dont rember how many reply was done on that one but i am sure it was pretty close to a thousand that i know for sure

Merci , Marc
 
  #12  
Old 09-16-07, 08:01 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
ground down the world around

screw in line with the length of the plate so in a typical vertical install, the screw is up and down, and in a horizontal plaet, the screw is horizontal.

makes sense does't it.

actually I I can give reason to have ground up but typical in my area is ground down so that is what normally happens.

any more?

whoops! marc was posting while I was typing. Now you started it.
 
  #13  
Old 09-16-07, 08:57 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Boston, MA.
Posts: 2,113
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Talking

Someones gotta do it. May as well be me !!!!

Your all wet on the ground thing NAP!
 
  #14  
Old 09-16-07, 09:02 PM
itsunclebill's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Denver, CO area
Posts: 221
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Just use push-ins and you don't have to deal with twisting or not.
 
  #15  
Old 09-16-07, 09:36 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Boston, MA.
Posts: 2,113
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
UNK, Your a trouble maker
 
  #16  
Old 09-16-07, 10:21 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
But be careful you have "real" wire nuts. Many times I have seen "fake" wire nuts included with major name ceiling fans and lights from the Big Box stores. By fake I mean no spring inside to grip the wires.
 
  #17  
Old 09-16-07, 11:23 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by itsunclebill View Post
Just use push-ins and you don't have to deal with twisting or not.
One issue is that not all push-ins are rated for all common types of stranded wire. For instance, the Ideal In-Sure connectors support a much narrower set of stranded wire sizes/types vs. solid.

http://www.idealindustries.com/produ...in/in-sure.jsp

In some cases, wire nuts may be the only viable choice.

I agree that the push-in connectors do seem to be very reliable as long as you strip very precisely (1/2", for instance, on the In-Sure connectors) and make sure that every wire is visibly through the clamp and to the end of the connector.

There have been other threads where it has been noted that the push-in connectors are less forgiving of sloppy/fast work compared to wire nuts.
 
  #18  
Old 09-17-07, 09:53 PM
ddr
ddr is offline
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 133
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I've had to wire nut 4 or 5 #12 wires (grounding wires usually) and it's definitely not fun. I've seen these push-in connectors in the store, but always think of the problems with back-stab wired receptacles. Are these connectors designed differently so they are more reliable than back-stab connections?
 
  #19  
Old 09-18-07, 12:09 AM
brewcityc's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Twisting is a MUST for me. I've been on commercial jobs where they get cheap wirenuts and they had a problem with them just falling off. I always twist them together with my linemans, cut them off even, twist on the wirenuts hand tight, and then give a couple more twists with the pliers. This way I know I've got a good splice. I have NEVER had one come off on me, even with cheap wirenuts. I do it this way for solid, stranded, or both. With solid I feel that it's especially important to pretwist. This is because every solid splice I've taken apart that wasn't pretwisted, turned out not to be twisted by the wirenut either. The wires were basically compressed together and could have eventually pulled apart. In fact, sometimes they did and I was there to fix them. Wires of different sizes tend not to twist together either. The smaller sized wire will wrap around the bigger, but the bigger will remain straight. In my mind this is no good. The last reason I would pretwist, is that the wires stay twisted when you take the nut off. This was useful for doing hot splices without disturbing the circuit (esp. the neutral). Obviously the trade has shied away from hot work, so the last point is now moot.
 
  #20  
Old 09-18-07, 09:08 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: United States
Posts: 18,497
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
This thread is wandering all over the map and unlikely to get anywhere useful, and has no chance whatsoever of developing a consensus.

Some twist, some don't. There's no one answer. Do what you want.

Some backstab. Some don't. Everybody agrees it is bad, yet it's still done every day for practical reasons. And it's still legal.

The new push-in connectors that replace wire nuts are certainly better than the backstabs on receptacles and switches. Are they better than wire nuts? There's no definitive answer to that question. Use them if you want to, but they are more expensive than wire nuts.

Ground up or ground down. There are reasons for both. Do whatever you want and quit talking about it. If you don't like what you have for whatever reason, turn it over.
 
  #21  
Old 09-20-07, 05:51 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Smile Twist

Marrets can fall off and then you lose all power to what ever it is on and what it down the line from it.

Twist the wires three times to have a secure connections so that even if a marret falls off - you do not lose power
 
  #22  
Old 09-20-07, 08:51 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Boston, MA.
Posts: 2,113
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
.nfpa 70e--

(American)
Plan ahead. These things are in place for US.
The only thing in the code for us is..... Clearances.

Think about it.

(unrealistic in some cases).

( May as well be me...)
 
  #23  
Old 09-20-07, 11:43 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,493
Received 33 Votes on 25 Posts
Uhh, I hope that you will excuse me for being an idiot but what the heck is a marret?
 
  #24  
Old 09-20-07, 11:51 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
"Uhh, I hope that you will excuse me for being an idiot but what the heck is a marret?"

Furd Marret is a european verison of wirenuts

merci , Marc

{ i hope i get this term right }
 
  #25  
Old 09-21-07, 05:14 AM
GregH's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 10,016
Received 13 Votes on 13 Posts
Just so you know:

Marrette is a trade name for the Canadian company Thomas & Betts.
Their product line is in wide enough use that the trade name sticks.
 
  #26  
Old 09-21-07, 08:26 PM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 4,693
Received 28 Votes on 27 Posts
All these twist/no-twist discussions makes me wonder, do wire nuts twist counter-clockwise in Australia? Since the build their toilets to flush the other direction, maybe everything is opposite...
 
  #27  
Old 09-21-07, 08:35 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NA
Posts: 1,065
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
FURD

I think they are likely to close this thread pretty quick so interesting thing with the marrette. I still have a few red ones from years ago. They were the first wirenut I ever used and never understood why people in the industry didn't recognize the name. I don't remember where we got them at work been too long ago.

Moderatorettes: I never said a freakin word about twisting or not twisting......

Roger
 
  #28  
Old 09-21-07, 08:44 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts


Gosh, close this thread.....
 
  #29  
Old 09-21-07, 09:05 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NA
Posts: 1,065
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Lets talk about that tornado down your way a while back....you get thru that in one piece?

That was one heck of a black nasty cloud.

Hey!!! this is my 1000th post. Do I get a door prize? On other forums I got some stars and badges.......

Roger
 
  #30  
Old 09-21-07, 09:42 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: North of Boston, MA.
Posts: 2,113
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Talking Atta Boy !!!!

"Hey!!! this is my 1000th post. Do I get a door prize? On other forums I got some stars and badges......."

Congrats!
And you know what your talking about!!!

We are all blessed to have you here!!!

I don't know how you all deal with that stuff.

Here, The bad weather is a marathon. You guys', Seems like a sucker punch, All the time.

I too hope all is well.
 
  #31  
Old 09-21-07, 10:31 PM
brewcityc's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
So, what if I take a splice apart and the wires stay twisted.... Do I then have to untwist them before putting the wirenut back on?

How about push-in connectors.... If I twist the wires before pushing them in, does that then make them better than wirenuts?

Back stabs aren't as good as using the terminal screws right.... Well what if I strip off 3", wrap it around the screw, and then route the excess wire to the backstab? Never can be too safe, right?
 
  #32  
Old 09-21-07, 11:22 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by brewcityc View Post
So, what if I take a splice apart and the wires stay twisted.... Do I then have to untwist them before putting the wirenut back on?

How about push-in connectors.... If I twist the wires before pushing them in, does that then make them better than wirenuts?

Back stabs aren't as good as using the terminal screws right.... Well what if I strip off 3", wrap it around the screw, and then route the excess wire to the backstab? Never can be too safe, right?
hate to be off point for a min but sound like tool man Tim on the TV


merci , Marc
 
  #33  
Old 09-22-07, 01:34 AM
brewcityc's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ha! Almost been to the E.R. enough times too
 
  #34  
Old 09-22-07, 08:20 AM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
Lets talk about that tornado down your way a while back....you get thru that in one piece?

That was one heck of a black nasty cloud.

Roger
My home is a fortress, dang twisters only took some of my shingles....

May 3 '99 twister took the entire house......everything except for a Norton antivirus box that was still standing on the desk in the same spot it was before the incident......
 
  #35  
Old 09-23-07, 01:19 AM
brewcityc's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 164
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Wow! that's one hell of a plug for Norton! LOL
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: