recommend electronics safe portable generator?

Reply

  #1  
Old 01-07-08, 07:34 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GA
Posts: 42
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
recommend electronics safe portable generator?

I have an electrician buddy of mine that is willing to put in a manual trans switch in change for a night away from the wife and beer.

I already have a coleman powermate 5000 feeding the house through the 240v / 20amp output. My flourescent lighting and electronics (especially my battery backups) do not seem to like the dirty power.

My electrician says a minimum of 30amp on the 240 out because i'm wanting to power an electronic water heater.

My question is can anyone recommend an electronics safe 30amp gen in the $1000 range? Or is there something specific i should look for? Does GFCI outlets on the gen mean it is clean power?
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 01-07-08, 07:47 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
Originally Posted by slowmod'01 View Post
(especially my battery backups)
A UPS (battery backup) with automatic voltage regulation is what you need to cope with dirty power. You probably have battery backups that do not have the voltage regulation feature so they will trip on and off a lot when exposed to fluxuation in the voltage.

My electrician says a minimum of 30amp on the 240 out because i'm wanting to power an electronic water heater.
That is the minimum requirement for just the water heater (7200W). If you want to run other things in conjunction with the water heater, you'll need a generator larger than that.

My question is can anyone recommend an electronics
safe 30amp gen in the $1000 range?
It's better to size your generator for the expected load, then buy an auto voltage regulation UPS for the electronics that need protection.

Does GFCI outlets on the gen mean it is clean power?
No.
 
  #3  
Old 01-07-08, 08:36 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GA
Posts: 42
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'm trying to stay on the portable side of things and keep it under 1K. My water heater is on a 30amp breaker now, and i know that will be the only thing that will be able to run with the size generator that i am looking at, and that is fine. It will be powered up on an as needed basis. It has a very fast recovery time and tends to hold heat for a while without power.

As for the battery backups.. this is what caused my initial concern. Being an IT geek and having as much money as i do invested in my home theater i did not scrimp in this area. My smallest backup which is on my computer is a 1300VA APC with noise filtering and AVR. The computer and theater run fine on the gen, the problem is the backups will constantly switch between line and battery power. This is what i'm trying to correct. I want a clean source coming into the house. With all my appliances being digital, all the way down to the ice maker, the last thing i want to do is fry them with 'dirty power'.
 
  #4  
Old 01-07-08, 09:39 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
If you want all clean power out of the generator, then there's no way you can do it portable and under $1k. The inverter type of generators produce very clean power compared to the typical alternator designs, but these usually start at $1k and go up from there. Other benefits are usually quieter running and good brand names/warranties.

The other complicating factor is that portable units simply do not have the rotational mass (inertia) to maintain constant voltage and frequency when loads cycle on and off.

You might want to look at the sensitivity settings on the APC units. I think they ship from the factory with med-high or high voltage sensitivity (something like 115V +/- 3%). Try bumping that setting down a little bit to avoid the constant tripping of the low voltage limit. The good news is that most consumer electronics with switching power supplies are designed to tolerate input voltages of 100V-240V to be compatible with the various power systems throughout the world. A prolonged exposure to lower-than-normal voltage shouldn't be a problem so long as the source is relatively clean.
 
  #5  
Old 01-07-08, 11:04 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GA
Posts: 42
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
After doing some research on my generator i realized that i overlooked the simplest thing of all... It does not have auto voltage regulation. that at least explains the 133v input reading on the battery backup
 
  #6  
Old 01-07-08, 03:38 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,495
Received 35 Votes on 27 Posts
If you want high-quality power you are not likely to get it in a gen-set that has a price of $1,000 or less.

My Yamaha inverter is only rated at 2800 watts (3,000 peak) and it has a price of more than $1,600 at the cheapest.

There are more factors to consider than just a voltage regulator.
 
  #7  
Old 01-08-08, 07:29 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
Automatic voltage regulation or inverter control is an expensive feature. The typical portable gen set has only a thumbscrew on the engine throttle to keep it at 3600 RPM +/- 15% usually. That's the only regulation. To get real voltage control, the generator needs to have an inverter, feedback loop controller and a large enough engine to meet the peak load spikes without bogging down.

The cheapest and most-protective solution is simply to unplug expensive electronics when you are on generator power.
 
  #8  
Old 01-08-08, 01:54 PM
S
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: (near) Boise, ID
Posts: 442
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
You can't live without hot water during a power outage? If so, would a gas or propane water heater be an option?
 
  #9  
Old 01-08-08, 02:04 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GA
Posts: 42
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
hot water is not a big deal, but would be nice as last time i lost power for 4 days in the middle of winter.. cold showers at 7 in the morning suck!!

The first thing i did when i purchased the house was to convert everything to electric and energy eff appliances. So gas / LP is out of the picture. Again that is not a concern, but i am going to get a gen big enough to power one this time around.

The original problem was that my battery backups were cycling between line and battery when running on the gen, i thought it was related to 'dirty power'. I just discovered yesterday that it is not the case at all, rather the lack of voltage regulation that is causing the backups to go crazy. a buddy of mine with the next model up Gen from mine (which has AVR, only difference) ran everything without a glitch.
 
  #10  
Old 01-08-08, 04:35 PM
R
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Near Buffalo, NY
Posts: 4,239
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
You may find that your electronic devices will be erratic even with proper voltage. They like nice, clean, "true sine waves", not the "modified sine waves" that most inexpensive gennies produce.

Without a true sine wave generator, you'll be taxing the power supplies and other circuitry in the TVs, computers, computer-controlled heater, and anything else with a microchip in it. I would spend the money now for a good backup genny rather than spending it later on repairs to the electronics.
 
  #11  
Old 01-09-08, 04:00 AM
G
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 176
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
There are ways to externally regulate voltage which is probably the most important to electronics,however you will have more into that than to just purchase a gen. with internal regulation and with that internal regulation, which will adjust engine throttle to load, you gain efficiency which will pay for itself soon after due to fuel prices. Spend a little more and make it right, you won't be sorry, it's the first $1000 that hurts.
 
  #12  
Old 01-09-08, 09:30 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
you can adjust the throttle on small protable generators but to get it right you have to understand the hertz or frequentcy "HZ' or cycle per second here in usa / cananda are on 60 HZ and with small prortable gas fired generators with 2 pole stator type are dailed in at excat 3600 rpm at full load with no load it will run little faster than 3600 rpm i know some run at 3700 or so just above the 3600 rpm and when you put on the load the engine will slow down a bit and get pick up the load.

to verify if it is correct do not adjust the genrator without a load on it but set up basically slightly above 3600 rpm first then put on about half load or so then check the speed or read the HZ it should land in 60 HZ range then check the voltage that point it should be near the nameplate voltage [ most will be about 120- 130 volt range depending on manufacter design if have AVR or not ] { i will expain about the AVR in a sec }

then unload the generator let run for few seconds to get the speed stableized then check the HZ i know it will be somehow little above the 60 HZ figures typically 62-65 HZ range [ that why some of the UPS are picky with the HZ ]

the generators without AVR somehow they will have slightly higher voltage unloaded but by time you load it up pretty good it will be right on the spec.

ok now next issue about the AVR [ automatic voltage regulator] this useally found on preuim or larger generators [ med and slow speed units always have this feature anyway]
what you have to adjust the speed as i stated above get it in 62-65 HZ range unloaded unless it have electronic governer on it then leave it alone it will adjust the speed automatically. [ on diesel engines units note this dont mess the setting at all ]

once you loaded the generator up at least half load check the HZ first then voltage [ the AVR should be about 125 v max ]

if you need to make the adjustment on the generator please check with your owner manual or engine manufacter instruction there.

a quick guide line for all engine

set unloaded engine speed just above 3600 rpm [ 2 pole verison ] or 1800 rpm [ 4 pole verison ] by time the load kick in the engine governer or electronic controller will take up the slack on it.

if have other question related to this please post it here.

Merci, Marc
 
  #13  
Old 09-15-09, 05:41 AM
J
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by slowmod'01 View Post
I already have a coleman powermate 5000 feeding the house through the 240v / 20amp output. My flourescent lighting and electronics (especially my battery backups) do not seem to like the dirty power.
Sorry to drag up an old thread, but doesn't the Coleman Powermate 5000 have an AVR which should generate clean power?
 
  #14  
Old 09-15-09, 02:23 PM
R
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Near Buffalo, NY
Posts: 4,239
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Welcome to the forums, jbierling.

A voltage regulator regulates voltage. It doesn't care whether the power is generated from the grid, a genset with true sine wave output, or a genset with modified sine wave output.

The Powermate happens to be a "modified sine wave" genny. As such, it is not suitable for use with sensitive electronics. Only a "true sine wave" genny produces the clean power necessary to drive digital electronics such as TVs, computers, HVAC systems with digital controls, and even some appliances like refrigerators.

Those systems are much more forgiving of under- and over-voltage conditions (most will run as low as 95VAC and as high as 130VAC) than they are of "dirty", distorted, or modified waveforms.
 
  #15  
Old 09-15-09, 06:44 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jbierling View Post
Sorry to drag up an old thread, but doesn't the Coleman Powermate 5000 have an AVR which should generate clean power?
That allright as long you have very good question to bring it up.
And welcome to the DoItYourself fourms.

I will explain the answer below Rick's qouteation

Originally Posted by Rick Johnston View Post
Welcome to the forums, jbierling.

A voltage regulator regulates voltage. It doesn't care whether the power is generated from the grid, a genset with true sine wave output, or a genset with modified sine wave output.

The Powermate happens to be a "modified sine wave" genny. As such, it is not suitable for use with sensitive electronics. Only a "true sine wave" genny produces the clean power necessary to drive digital electronics such as TVs, computers, HVAC systems with digital controls, and even some appliances like refrigerators.

Those systems are much more forgiving of under- and over-voltage conditions (most will run as low as 95VAC and as high as 130VAC) than they are of "dirty", distorted, or modified waveforms.

Rick have good point and what most common cupit with cheap generator they don't have clean stator set up as I call them pitch most cheap generator are flat pitch that why it can make pretty dirty power and it useally can get distorted by speed or voltage or both.

Some generator are self voltage regulating set up but most will have AVR in the system one way or other and there are few types of AVR in there.

I have two slow speed diesel generators and they are three phase unit and the rotor itself is allready have 2/3 pitch result a very clean sine wave and my units can able run in parallel with uility sytem if I want to.

I have them for many years and never have issue with them.

I know it can be very complexed discussion I think one of the day myself and I hope Rick can join with me and write a artcale about this and make it easy to understand about this.

However let me remind you again anytime you use the portable or PTO { power take off } or inverter generator units please .,, please heed the warning and install a correct transfer switch I know some of you may not afford it but in long run it much safer this way and far less legal issue.

That topic been show up from time to time so please bear with us we always think safety first.

Merci,Marc
 
  #16  
Old 09-16-09, 04:55 AM
R
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Near Buffalo, NY
Posts: 4,239
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Here's the difference between a True Sine Wave (which comes from the grid or a TSW generator) and a Modified Sine Wave (which comes from cheaper gennies and inverters):



We're looking at one cycle that takes place over 1/60th of a second. Notice the smooth "zero crossing" as the TSW hits zero volts.

The MSW switches from 120v to 0v, holds at 0v for a split second, then switches from 0v to 120v. It is this pause that messes with electronic devices. Many have built-in timers or clocks that use the zero crossing as a sync point. They expect that zero crossing to be exactly one point in time. Because the MSW holds zero for a length of time, the clocks can't sync properly to the AC power.

Another problem is the RMS voltage of the TSW versus the peak voltage of the MSW. The TSW is actually producing peak voltage of about 170 volts, while he MSW is producing a peak voltage of 120 volts. The power supplies in electronic devices expect to see 170 peak volts, not 120.
 

Last edited by Rick Johnston; 09-17-09 at 01:14 AM. Reason: Correct typo
  #17  
Old 09-16-09, 09:02 AM
J
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the responses!

Originally Posted by Rick Johnston View Post
The Powermate happens to be a "modified sine wave" genny. As such, it is not suitable for use with sensitive electronics.
There seem to be many different Powermates. Is what you say also true for this one (PM0675700):

5700 Portable Portable Generator MANUAL START

It advertises "Automatic Voltage Regulation Protects Solid State Equipment". What exactly does that mean? Will this not provide suitable whole house power?

How would it compare to what would be Honda's equivalent (EB6500):

Honda Power Equipment - EB6500

Thanks again.
 
  #18  
Old 09-17-09, 01:25 AM
R
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Near Buffalo, NY
Posts: 4,239
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Hmmm ... the first one claims "Automatic Voltage Regulation Protects Solid State Equipment" in the description, yet the specs read: "Automatic voltage regulation: No"

The Honda doesn't say anything about that model having AVR or TSW, but the price tells me there's something more to it than those $799 gensets in the same wattage range.
 
  #19  
Old 09-17-09, 05:57 AM
J
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rick Johnston View Post
Hmmm ... the first one claims "Automatic Voltage Regulation Protects Solid State Equipment" in the description, yet the specs read: "Automatic voltage regulation: No"
I called the company and asked -- it does have an AVR.

Originally Posted by Rick Johnston View Post
The Honda doesn't say anything about that model having AVR or TSW, but the price tells me there's something more to it than those $799 gensets in the same wattage range.
That Honda has an AVR. I don't know if its a TSW AVR though.
 
  #20  
Old 09-17-09, 01:59 PM
P
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: FL USA
Posts: 54
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Modified Sine Wave

Rick, I don't want to take us off subject here but this is the first I've head of any mechanical generator producing a modified sine wave (what appears to be a "square" wave in your diagram).

I thought only the cheap electronic inverters produced modified sine waves


Slowmod, I want you to know that I have the same exact problem. I have a Coleman Powermate 6250 portable gen and when I run the house on it my APC UPS 1500VA is constantly switching between battery and gen.
 
  #21  
Old 09-17-09, 02:45 PM
J
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by PepZ555 View Post
I have a Coleman Powermate 6250 portable gen and when I run the house on it my APC UPS 1500VA is constantly switching between battery and gen.
Is it actually running the battery down?
 
  #22  
Old 09-17-09, 05:48 PM
P
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: FL USA
Posts: 54
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Well since it behaves that way I just take the UPS out of the equation. I don't know whether it runs the battery down or not.

Rick - Can you provide reference to the claim that Coleman Powermate generators output a modified sine wave, and not a natural sine wave?
 
  #23  
Old 09-17-09, 11:15 PM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by PepZ555 View Post
Rick, I don't want to take us off subject here but this is the first I've head of any mechanical generator producing a modified sine wave (what appears to be a "square" wave in your diagram).

I thought only the cheap electronic inverters produced modified sine waves


Slowmod, I want you to know that I have the same exact problem. I have a Coleman Powermate 6250 portable gen and when I run the house on it my APC UPS 1500VA is constantly switching between battery and gen.
Yeah there is couple of small generator do make modified sine wave aka inverter generator they are ok for most useage but not really clean for computer useage or very senstive electronic loads.

Most small and med size inverters do make MSW and some are not really suitable with some electronic or motor load at all due most inverter useally don't have very large surge resvere unless you got very large inverter then yes but not always the case.

Now related issue with your APC UPS system they are very picky with HZ first then voltage that how the UPS will read so if you are on generator power and not on right HZ like58 or 59 or 61 or 62 one of few numbers the UPS will kick to back up power until it get good HZ like perfect 60 HZ then able run thru without much issue but the curpit what I know and heard and see it myself some do make " dirty power " like refering to the stanard sine wave as Rick show above but with many little dip and spike along the way the UPS will not able take that power at all.

IIRC there are some adjustment on UPS but I don't know how much leeway you can do with it and also with your generator to see how much droop { momterary speed drop } it have I know alot of small gasoline units have that issue hard to keep it steady at no load or light load but once you get good load on it it run steady without any droop on it.

( you may want to check with your owner manual that come with your generator to see how much adjustment it can be done otherwise a cerfied service shop should able help you with the issue you have )

That one reason why I stay with diesel units due the HZ regulations is very tight +-1 HZ or less { useally about .25HZ }

Merci,Marc
 
  #24  
Old 09-17-09, 11:33 PM
R
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Near Buffalo, NY
Posts: 4,239
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Originally Posted by PepZ555 View Post
Rick - Can you provide reference to the claim that Coleman Powermate generators output a modified sine wave, and not a natural sine wave?
Yes: I own one. I have measured its output.

I can't speak for the entire Powermate line of products, though.
 
  #25  
Old 09-18-09, 03:56 AM
P
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: FL USA
Posts: 54
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Wow, no kidding. I never knew they made such a thing. Now I am finding them when I do a search. It seems like the inverter generators are on the low power end of the scale, ie < 2000 watts or so.

Mine is a Coleman Portable Generator Model PC0545007 - 5000 watt / 6250 watt surge. I read through the manual but it doesn't say anything about inverter. phewww. I don't like square waves aka modified sine waves!




I'm willing to bet Slowmod01's generator is not a modified sine wave genny, and indeed a sine wave genny.
 
  #26  
Old 10-10-09, 04:05 PM
N
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rick Johnston View Post
Yes: I own one. I have measured its output.

I can't speak for the entire Powermate line of products, though.
"measured its output" ??? I know of no way to "measure"the output of a generator or inverter and tell if it is a true sine wave or modified sine wave.

The best way is to view the waveform on an oscilloscope.

I own a Honda 2000i which produces a perfect sine wave output. I recently purchased a very cheap generator at Costco for $170 (now at $140) and the waveform is "dirty" but it is NOT a modified sine wave.


Waveform of the cheap Costco generator:



The Honda waveform looks like this:



And, to compare, I also own a very old Dayton 2200 watt generator:


I can't speak for all "inverter" generators, but considering the price they want for them .. I doubt many (if *any*) of them use modified sine wave inverters.

As far as stand alone inverters ... unless they specifically say they are "sine wave" (and cost considerably more) then assume they all are "modified sine wave" (I prefer to call them modified square wave)
 

Last edited by N1JDU; 10-10-09 at 04:21 PM.
  #27  
Old 10-10-09, 11:03 PM
R
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Near Buffalo, NY
Posts: 4,239
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Welcome to the forums, and thanks for the pix.

Originally Posted by N1JDU View Post
"measured its output" ??? I know of no way to "measure"the output of a generator or inverter and tell if it is a true sine wave or modified sine wave.
The best way is to view the waveform on an oscilloscope.
I used my ancient Tektronix o-scope, but I guess "measure" wasn't the right word.
 
  #28  
Old 10-11-09, 07:28 AM
F
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
N1JDU.,

Thanks for the picture to show the sine wave format and welcome to the forum as well.

Merci,Marc
 
  #29  
Old 12-14-10, 09:28 AM
N
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Eh, a newbie bringing another thread back from the dead. LOL!

Anyway, I have the Coleman Powermate 5700 generator that is advertised to have an AVR, and shows one in the diagram in the manual. It shows dead on 120V and 238V. However, the voltage is anything but 'clean'. It powers everything in the house, including the furnace, clock radios, phones, satellite receiver, etc... except for the Belkin UPS my computer is connected to. It keep clicking about every second or two, making the lights blink on the switch panel everything is plugged into.

I took an oscilloscope home and tested it without load, and got this...


compared to what was coming out of the wall...


Could my AVR be bad?
Are there better AVR's that can be swapped in place?
Or, is this just what you get when you spend less than $1000 on a generator this size? ...even though it comes equipped with an AVR...

Thanks!
 
  #30  
Old 12-14-10, 09:41 AM
I
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Near Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 10,944
Received 43 Votes on 41 Posts
Originally Posted by n2omike View Post
is this just what you get when you spend less than $1000 on a generator this size?
Yep, compare to the equivalently sized Honda inverter generator that retails about $4k. AVR is not the same as an inverter with true sine wave output.
 
  #31  
Old 12-14-10, 12:21 PM
N
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I have an old computer that I powered with the generator, and I know plenty of people who watch tv, etc with similar generators...

I was just wondering if this waveform was TYPICAL for a generator with an automatic voltage regulator. (AVR) ...and if mine might be 'bad', and a new, or better AVR might clean it up a bit.

FWIW, the generator is a Coleman Powermate 5700W unit powered by a 10hp Yamaha engine.

Thanks!
 
  #32  
Old 12-14-10, 02:36 PM
Justin Smith's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cressona, Pa, USA
Posts: 2,546
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
not to change the subject, but will this dirty power hurt a ceiling fan? also, a clock radio i took apart used bridge rectifiers, so it will not be hurt.
 
  #33  
Old 12-20-10, 09:51 AM
N
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I put a 700W steady load (light bulbs) on the generator, and the output went from this... (unloaded)


to this...



Possibly picked up a little distortion, (may have just been hidden before) but FAR less ripple.
It's a Coleman Powermate 5700W/7125W generator powered by a 10hp Yamaha engine.

I also replaced the stock muffler with a factory underseat unit from a 05 Kawasaki ZX6 Ninja. It is FAR more substantial than the original, quite heavy, and the exhaust noise is pretty much insignificant! I had to do a bit of welding/fab, but I think it looks almost factory.



This is the stock muffler that came on the unit...
 
Reply
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: