Replacing a double switch in bathroom


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Old 03-29-08, 06:38 PM
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Replacing a double switch in bathroom

My bathroom has two switches. One for light, the other for fan. The light recently started to stay on even in the off position. I switched off the breaker, labeled the wires (3 that were attached) and took the switch to Home Depot and got a switch with the same 15A and 120-277V specs. I put it in the same as the other and now only one switch turns on both fan and light. The wiring was two black on the right side and 1 on the left. The one on the left is a fat, stiff copper looking one. When I move it to the other screw on that side, the other switch works and the first one doesn't. The only difference between the new switch and the old is that the old one has all 4 screws that look copper. The new one has 2 black screws (on the right) and 2 copper screws (where the fat copper wire attaches). Why doesn't it work and what should I do to make it work correctly? Also, is it safe to run it like this for now? Thanks in advance.
 
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Old 03-29-08, 07:28 PM
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the safest way to do this is pigtail if you have two wire going to the switch screw [ many switches are not approved to run two wires on one screw at all ]

however do you have a voltage tester like non concant voltage tester or voltmeter or neon test light ??

if you have one of the three you can able test which one is power lead and use that for pigtail for both switches

i belive you got one of the black wire switched around.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 03-29-08, 07:42 PM
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I only have 1 wire going to each of 3 out of 4 screws as it was when I took off the old one. Should I try putting the two black wires on the copper screws and the big copper wire on the black screw? Or should I try switching the two black wires with each other?
 
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Old 03-29-08, 07:48 PM
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I think you missed something Marc. OP has 4 screws on the switch which would mean it is a DPST or a 4-way switch.

Sounds like OP replaced a DPST with a 4-way switch though.

apparently there were only 3 current carrying conductors though. Not sure what the OP has happening in the system though, so

angie, tell us how many wires you have going to each switch and where they come from or appear to go, if possible.

also, before this all happened, did one switch have anything to do with the other switch or appliance operated?

is there only one switch for the light and one for the fan in the room?
 
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Old 03-29-08, 07:51 PM
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I missed your last post so nothing in it was taken into consideration.

I suspect you have installed a different type of switch. Typically a switch with 2 black screws is a 4 way switch. The other one could be a 4 way but could also be a DPST switch.

They switch things differently.
 
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Old 03-29-08, 09:12 PM
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Only 1 wire goes to each screw (3 of 4 screws). They just come from the back of the box. It's hard to see, but it looks like there is a red "cap" of some sort. I don't know if it keeps the unused wires there or what. And each switch worked independent of each other. One turned on the bathroom lights, the other turned on the bathroom fan. I have closed the plate at this point, but if you need more information I can open it up again.
 
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Old 03-29-08, 10:04 PM
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Sounds like what he had was a duplex switch. He is trying to connect by positions on last switch not function of each screw.

Original Poster: You should have two screws on each side bridged by a metal strip. On one side you will break off that strip. On the other it will remain intact. One wire is power from the light. That goes on the side where the bridge remains intact (either screw). The other two go on the side you removed the bridge from. One on each screw.

To find the hot wire measure between the ground in the box and each wire. The one with a 120v is the hot. If no ground in the box plug an extension cord into a receptacle with a known good ground and measure between the extension cord ground and each wire.
 
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Old 03-29-08, 10:52 PM
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Look carefully at the handle on the new switch. Is it stamped on/off...or is it just blank.

Different manufacturers build switches with the terminals in different positions on the switch. While you put it back the same way the old one was, this may be wrong for the new switch.

Sounds like you bought a 3 way switch by mistake.
 
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Old 03-29-08, 11:16 PM
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I read the first post again and still think it may be a duplex switch. Original poster: did you have one switch with two handles or am I misreading what you wrote and you had two switches each with one handle.
 
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Old 03-29-08, 11:41 PM
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Bathroom switch

OK. ray2047...I went back to Home Depot with the original switch and the electrical guy showed me the switch I needed which is what I purchased. He then told me I needed to break off that tab that you also said to take off so that the switch acts as two different ones instead of one. However, now the light works without the fan, but the fan doesn't work at all. It's one unit with two toggle switches(handles?) on it. It is labeled on/off when turned to the respective position. There are two screws on each side and it's not the 3-way-I saw the box labeled 3 way and that's not the one I got. Before switching it out, the fan worked fine. Any suggestions?
 
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Old 03-30-08, 12:16 AM
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You should have broken the tab on only one side. Is that what you did? Assuming you did then are you sure the fan works? Most of the ones I have seen the motor leads terminate in a standard plug that goes into a receptacle built into the fan. If so unplug the fan motor and plug it into an extension cord. If it doesn't run then the motor is bad.

If the motor does work then you may have the wires at the switch wrong. Did you check each lead to determine which was hot? That should be on the side with the unbroken tab. If you don't have a tester there is a quick way to determine which is which. With power off twist two wires together and turn on the power. If neither the light or the fan work then they are the fan and light and the third is power. If fan or light works then one lead is the hot the other fan/light. You can then try each of those one at a time to the third wire.

Edit: Just re-read and saw the fan was working so skip that part of my post. Haven't looked at those switches in a long time. There may only be a tab on one side. If so you don't break it. If you have due to my poor advice fasten two pigtails to the incoming hot wire and connect those to the two screws on one side.
 
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Old 03-30-08, 12:56 AM
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So - to test for the hot - are you saying that I should
1) take 2 of the 3 wires, twist them together and attach them to a single screw on the side with the broken tab (yes, only 1 side was broken off)? And leave the 3rd wire attached to the other side or not? Then turn the power back on?
Or
2) twist them together and leave them unattached from the screw and leave the 3rd one attached or unattached? Then turn the power on to see.
Please be very specific.
Thanks for your help.
I'm signing off for the night. I will check again tomorrow.
I really appreciate the input.
 
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Old 03-30-08, 07:49 AM
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Ok, let me hit this again. Don't use duplex switches very often and when OP said "2 switches" it threw me towards the 4 way or DPST thing, so;


4 screws should mean there is a tab on each side.

If you broke off only one tab, attach the one hot wire to the opposite side and the wires going to the fan and the light to a screw on the other side.

If you broke off both tabs, you will need to put a pigtail (short piece of wire) to each of the screws on one side and then connect those to the incoming hot wire and on the other side, the light and the fan attach to one of the screws each.

If there was only one tab and you broke it off, then place pigtails on the screws that the bridge attached to each other and tie this to the incoming hot wire and on the other side, the light and the fan, on seperate screws.


you should have some type of voltage tester to be able to check which is the atual hot wire coming in but it should be the wire that attached to your old switch that was bridged together with a second screw.
 
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Old 03-30-08, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by angieb1019
So - to test for the hot - are you saying that I should
1) take 2 of the 3 wires, twist them together and attach them to a single screw on the side with the broken tab (yes, only 1 side was broken off)? And leave the 3rd wire attached to the other side or not? Then turn the power back on?
Or
2) twist them together and leave them unattached from the screw and leave the 3rd one attached or unattached? Then turn the power on to see.
Please be very specific.
Thanks for your help.
I'm signing off for the night. I will check again tomorrow.
I really appreciate the input.
For testing the switch is not used. You only have a limited combination of wires. Trying each combination should show which is correct. Call the wires:

H= Power from light/fan
L= Line from Light
F= Line from Fan

Connecting L+F nothing happens when you turn the breaker back on. The unused wire is therefore H.

Of course if either the light or the fan work then you know the unused line is what ever didn't work and can label it. You also know one of the two connected wires is H.

You then detach the two connected wires. And try the labeled wire to each one to determine which is H.

Of course a simple voltage tester is easier. See my previous post for instructions if you do that.
 
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Old 03-30-08, 09:51 AM
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ray, just a note. take notice angie did state there is a red cap in the j-box and is unaware of its purpose. I would caution suggesting angie hook up wires and perform a smoke test. If there is a second circuit in the box for some reason, she may get a different result than expected.
 
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Old 03-30-08, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by nap
ray, just a note. take notice angie did state there is a red cap in the j-box and is unaware of its purpose. I would caution suggesting angie hook up wires and perform a smoke test. If there is a second circuit in the box for some reason, she may get a different result than expected.
Good catch. I had totally ignored that.

angieb1019: Please only use a voltage tester to determine which is hot. Do not use my smoke test method.
 
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Old 03-30-08, 09:59 AM
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True Nap i will be extra carefull some case but not very often can run MWBC in there or have extra wire for fan/light combo and used that to seperated it

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 03-30-08, 10:35 AM
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What puzzles me is the OP wrote:
The wiring was two black on the right side and 1 on the left. The one on the left is a fat, stiff copper looking one.
I wonder what the "fat, stiff copper looking one" is. I'd guess the capped is one of a three conductor NM that wasn't used but why and where does the thick black one come from.
 
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Old 03-30-08, 10:40 AM
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it will be much nicer if the OP did take a photo to clear up the confusing details here

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 03-30-08, 11:25 PM
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Ok re-read the quote in my last post. angieb1019 said "copper colored wire" not black. Could he mean a bare copper wire? Scary if that's true. Did the original wire break off too short to use, the capped wire, and they just used the ground wire in the cable for the hot. Geeze an uninsulated hot wire. Angieb1019 if that is true turn off the breaker and leave it off. The circuit is too dangerous to be on till it is fixed.
 
 

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