New breaker is tripping me into madness
#1
04-02-08, 10:54 AM
New breaker is tripping me into madness
Pulled out old AL wiring and replaced with 12 ga Romex without removing much drywall. Circuit begins with AFCI breaker in subpanel and 2 wire goes to switch box. Three switches in box, two for lights, third for outlet.
Wired everything up and flipped on breaker. Outlet worked fine, both always on receptacle and switched receptacle.
When I tried either light, the breaker tripped. Checked first light to see if I crossed wires at light box. Went back to switch box and removed all wiring connections. Connected hot black to first switch directly, leaving black from first light on the other pole of the switch going to light.
Twisted white from panel with white from light. With the breaker on, turned on switch and breaker tripped again.
Same thing happens when I do the second light the same way. I feel like a fool, please help.
Wired everything up and flipped on breaker. Outlet worked fine, both always on receptacle and switched receptacle.
When I tried either light, the breaker tripped. Checked first light to see if I crossed wires at light box. Went back to switch box and removed all wiring connections. Connected hot black to first switch directly, leaving black from first light on the other pole of the switch going to light.
Twisted white from panel with white from light. With the breaker on, turned on switch and breaker tripped again.
Same thing happens when I do the second light the same way. I feel like a fool, please help.
#2
04-02-08, 11:17 AM
Just a guess (and likely foot-in-mouth) but switches often arc, and so the arc fault function of the breaker might be getting tickled. Are you sure it's rated for this purpose?
-- Rich
-- Rich
#3
04-02-08, 11:26 AM
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Try to trobleshooting the AFCI is very tricky to do it. however i do have some expernice with it.
you say the AFCI trip after the switch is turn on to the luminaire ?? if so
you have dimmer or not ?
is the luminaire is CFL or not ?
if not to both above question.,, stay tuned to next pargraph.
ok.,, turn off the breaker for now then what you do is take a very carefull look at netural and ground wire see if you have any nicks there [ this is a surefire sign that will trip the AFCI ] and if you don't see any nick or cuts on the wire espcally with netrual and ground wires.
if they are fine my next step is unhook the luminaire for a min [ put a wire cap for tempory ] and turn on the breaker.,
leave the switch off for a min if the breaker don't trip then turn on the switch if the breaker stay on then you have something is not right at the luminaire location but however if do trip with out luminaire then you got wire pintched or something along the way.
I do have a specal tester to verify if wire is good or not and genally with this specal tester it useally best derefered to the electrician [ not all will have this tester ] which the tester will called Megger that specal tester will induce high voltage to test to see if the wire is bad or not.
and if the wire is bad it will arc it [ sometime can heard some can feel from it ]
hope that help you with this.
Merci,Marc
you say the AFCI trip after the switch is turn on to the luminaire ?? if so
you have dimmer or not ?
is the luminaire is CFL or not ?
if not to both above question.,, stay tuned to next pargraph.
ok.,, turn off the breaker for now then what you do is take a very carefull look at netural and ground wire see if you have any nicks there [ this is a surefire sign that will trip the AFCI ] and if you don't see any nick or cuts on the wire espcally with netrual and ground wires.
if they are fine my next step is unhook the luminaire for a min [ put a wire cap for tempory ] and turn on the breaker.,
leave the switch off for a min if the breaker don't trip then turn on the switch if the breaker stay on then you have something is not right at the luminaire location but however if do trip with out luminaire then you got wire pintched or something along the way.
I do have a specal tester to verify if wire is good or not and genally with this specal tester it useally best derefered to the electrician [ not all will have this tester ] which the tester will called Megger that specal tester will induce high voltage to test to see if the wire is bad or not.
and if the wire is bad it will arc it [ sometime can heard some can feel from it ]
hope that help you with this.
Merci,Marc
#4
04-02-08, 11:46 AM
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Just going out on a limb here...
AFCI from what I understand also have GFCI (although at a higher tripping current).
Are the lights on a 3-way switch? If so, did they happen to tie the light to a neutral on another circuit (they did this in my 10-year-old house).
AFCI from what I understand also have GFCI (although at a higher tripping current).
Are the lights on a 3-way switch? If so, did they happen to tie the light to a neutral on another circuit (they did this in my 10-year-old house).
#5
04-02-08, 11:55 AM
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Strategery.,,
The question about the AFCI work as GFCI ? it is pretty close but not the excat the same but however there is two verison of AFCI breaker out in the market now.
the most recent one is called comb AFCI which it will detect both parallel and series arc fault while other one only detect the parallel arc fault.
here a quick info with AFCI
that should clear up some of the question if feel confuseing let me know i will get other info related to this to clear up some of myth or confusing detals.
Merci,Marc
The question about the AFCI work as GFCI ? it is pretty close but not the excat the same but however there is two verison of AFCI breaker out in the market now.
the most recent one is called comb AFCI which it will detect both parallel and series arc fault while other one only detect the parallel arc fault.
here a quick info with AFCI
that should clear up some of the question if feel confuseing let me know i will get other info related to this to clear up some of myth or confusing detals.
Merci,Marc
#6
04-02-08, 12:21 PM
Are you able to tell whether it's the Arc Fault that's tripping or the Over Current portion of the breaker? If you're not sure, try swapping it out temporarily with a standard breaker of the same size. If a normal breaker trips, you have a short somewhere in the system; either a crossed wire somewhere or a screw/staple through a wire. If the regular breaker works correctly, then you have a harder time troubleshooting why the AFCI is tripping. (the other posts can help troubleshoot an AFCI as I (luckily) don't have much experience with them (yet)).
#7
04-02-08, 01:14 PM
More information
Thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts. The first light is a regular overhead, the second is a Casablanca fan with lights using a Casablanca controller that doesn't dim but does control the speed, fan direction, and lights.
No lights are on a dimmer and none are CFL. The new romex I ran to the fan is three wire but I have capped the unused red wire.
Great idea to switch out the AFCI with a regular breaker, but that will take a few days due to my schedule.
No lights are on a dimmer and none are CFL. The new romex I ran to the fan is three wire but I have capped the unused red wire.
Great idea to switch out the AFCI with a regular breaker, but that will take a few days due to my schedule.
#8
04-02-08, 05:11 PM
Casablanca controller that doesn't dim but does control the speed,
#9
04-02-08, 07:15 PM
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It possible it can do that to make a funny signal to trip the AFCI device
try tempory bypass the controller [ the remote device ] to see if that clear up if so let us know.
Merci,Marc
try tempory bypass the controller [ the remote device ] to see if that clear up if so let us know.
Merci,Marc
#10
04-03-08, 06:59 PM
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"Some designs combine GFCI and AFCI protection."
I thought there might be a ground fault, or a wiring method that would make it seem as though there was a ground fault.
I thought there might be a ground fault, or a wiring method that would make it seem as though there was a ground fault.
#11
04-03-08, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Strategery
"Some designs combine GFCI and AFCI protection."
I thought there might be a ground fault, or a wiring method that would make it seem as though there was a ground fault.
I thought there might be a ground fault, or a wiring method that would make it seem as though there was a ground fault.
yeah that true but as long you follow the common sense of trouble shooting i am sure one way or other it will be found.
i allready been doing few trouble shooting the AFCI and GFCI's both react little diffrent but ground wire with netural for sure automatically trip them but AFCI it will some will not trip depending on what type of AFCI breaker is.
Merci,Marc
#12
04-05-08, 07:32 PM
Tried a few things
Took off black wire from AFCI and put it into a spare, non-AFCI breaker. Overhead light worked! No trip.
Hooked a dedicated circuit that powers only a microwave to the AFCI. The AFCI tripped the moment I flipped the breaker on. I also tried holding bare wire ends to a light bulb and had my wife flip the breaker. Light started to go on and then breaker tripped.
Based on all this and what happened when I began this circuit, it seemed that I had a bad AFCI breaker.
Went to Home Depot and they took my AFCI breaker back, which was a Murray. I asked why they did not have any more Murray AFCI breakers when they still sold Murray panels. They said the Murray AFCI breakers were recalled and they didn't know when they would get new ones. So they sold me a Square D Homeline 20 amp AFCI breaker instead. The whole circuit is 12 AWG.
I put the new Homeline breaker in but it tripped the moment I flipped the switch for the overhead light.
This first overhead light I am working with is the only thing I am powering. The Casablanca fan has a separate switch.
I have left all the ground wires connected during these tests but I separated all the whites and blacks when testing. Only the overhead light which is not connected at all to the Casablanca fan is what I am using to test now.
Help please.
Hooked a dedicated circuit that powers only a microwave to the AFCI. The AFCI tripped the moment I flipped the breaker on. I also tried holding bare wire ends to a light bulb and had my wife flip the breaker. Light started to go on and then breaker tripped.
Based on all this and what happened when I began this circuit, it seemed that I had a bad AFCI breaker.
Went to Home Depot and they took my AFCI breaker back, which was a Murray. I asked why they did not have any more Murray AFCI breakers when they still sold Murray panels. They said the Murray AFCI breakers were recalled and they didn't know when they would get new ones. So they sold me a Square D Homeline 20 amp AFCI breaker instead. The whole circuit is 12 AWG.
I put the new Homeline breaker in but it tripped the moment I flipped the switch for the overhead light.
This first overhead light I am working with is the only thing I am powering. The Casablanca fan has a separate switch.
I have left all the ground wires connected during these tests but I separated all the whites and blacks when testing. Only the overhead light which is not connected at all to the Casablanca fan is what I am using to test now.
Help please.
Last edited by Tyger52; 04-05-08 at 07:40 PM. Reason: typo and clarification
#13
04-06-08, 02:15 AM
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As you say the light switch tripped the AFCI breaker then you have something going on between the light switch and luminaire location most common curpit is nicked wire and second most common is overstapled wire staple [ sometime when you drive the wire staple down and get too hard it can pitched and cause the AFCI tripped ]
the first easy thing to do is look at both location very carefully to see any nick on wire and next step if you can get in the attic [ if accessable ] follow that wire that affect and see if the wire staple is too tight.
if not accesable for some reason you may want to defered to the electrician and they can bring one specal tester what we called Megger tester then they can meg it out to see where is the bad spot if that all clear then you may have very senestive switch [ it do happend sometime ]
let us know if you can't find the curpit the AFCI troubleshooting is pretty tricky to do it if not understand the system.
Yes there were a recall few years back with early generation AFCI breaker [ SqD is one of them i know for sure but not sure about other but i doubt it ]
which AFCI breaker you have there are two verison plain jane AFCI and other one called Combo verison the latter one is more tricker to trobleshooting.
Merci,Marc
the first easy thing to do is look at both location very carefully to see any nick on wire and next step if you can get in the attic [ if accessable ] follow that wire that affect and see if the wire staple is too tight.
if not accesable for some reason you may want to defered to the electrician and they can bring one specal tester what we called Megger tester then they can meg it out to see where is the bad spot if that all clear then you may have very senestive switch [ it do happend sometime ]
let us know if you can't find the curpit the AFCI troubleshooting is pretty tricky to do it if not understand the system.
Yes there were a recall few years back with early generation AFCI breaker [ SqD is one of them i know for sure but not sure about other but i doubt it ]
which AFCI breaker you have there are two verison plain jane AFCI and other one called Combo verison the latter one is more tricker to trobleshooting.
Merci,Marc
#14
04-10-08, 04:57 PM
I can be a moron sometimes
Ok, so I did not mention that I did not read the directions on wiring the AFCI breaker. I have wired one before that worked fine so but it was at least 6 months ago and not in this panel.
I wired the white neutral wire to neutral bus bar instead of the AFCI. Doh! As soon as I try this I will post back with what happened.
Meantime, vote me into the hall of shame for telling so many of my friends that I can "do it myself" because I always read the instructions. If this can redeem me, I found a clue at the AFCI Safety web site: http://www.afcisafety.org/report.html
