Why is there no power to the Cadet heaters?

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  #41  
Old 09-06-08, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
One circuit

Four heaters

only one works.
You mean nobody can solve this? This should be elementary!

You test to see if 240 at even ONE of the bad heaters. If say it were there, you'd want to run an ohms test on the element, to rule that out.

If 240 were NOT present, I'd make sure ONE of the wires had 120 and then shut off the breaker to confirm that these 4 heaters are indeed on one 2-pole circuit. If they were, you'd lose all power to both wires.

Then if they are on this circuit for sure, you find out which of these 2 wires got lost. Nobody can tell you WHERE without knowing your house, but you'd just have to trace and find where it went bad.

Per your 2nd post back: A black and white cable could go to each stat if stat is 2-pole, where a black and white come in and another black and white out go out, as 240.

If single pole stat - the black say would be in and out at stat, with white wire left hardwired at one end of heater element, with the other wire (the black one from the stat) coming into the OTHER end of the element on a separate leg to create 240 at that point.

Then I forgot to mention that ones needs to also verify that current can pass through the stat!

Gunguy posted while I was typing, so I will have to see what he said.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 09-06-08 at 01:53 PM. Reason: made something more clear
  #42  
Old 09-06-08, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
I might be missing something, I didn't draw it out.
And that is really all a person has to do, to grasp such problems more readily, if you first have a grasp on how 240 volt heaters work. If a person cannot figure out how current like that goes through a heater, then that person has to first learn that, and then the rest is sort of elementary. Then you can figure out which wire got lost and maybe why, and good places to look that make sense.
 
  #43  
Old 09-06-08, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
Pardon my lack of grasp, but if all wire in the t-stat box have power - all three cables - there should be power somewhere in the other t-stat boxes.

I would assume in the t-stat box that has power,
one cable is the source
one cable goes to the next t-stat in the circuit
one cable goes to the heater.

That would make the heater in the master bath the end of the circuit as it only had two cables in the t-stat box, presumably, one from the source and one to the heater.
Once again, YOU MUST STOP ASSUMING ANYTHING, and examine your installation completely! Your assumption would be correct if it was wired properly, but it is obvious that yours is NOT. I cannot stress enough, that without COMPLETE examination of EVERY wire at the same time, with complete information, you will not find your problem, and nobody at this forum can help as we are not there.

Your prior post with the wire color info in the tstat boxes is only 1/3 complete. What you don't state is:

1) Which black wire from which cable is pigtailed and is tied where? etc. (This is why I asked for pictures).
2) When you turn the tstat OFF, which wire of which cable still has power, and which loses it?
3) What exact brands and model #s are your tstats?
4) Do the cables resemble each other from box to box both in cable outer covering colors (white, off-white, gray, yellow, etc) and wire sizes (box leaving one box is 12 AWG but the next box has 14 AWG - shows that they are not the same cable)?
5) When you state "no power", where exactly are you connecting your meter - for example, between black & white?, or between black and ground? between white & ground? BE SPECIFIC! (all 3 ways should be measured)
6) Is the ground wire connected in your panel? (it should be)
7) You mention "tandem" breakers. Did you mean two normal sized breakers next to each other? (this is proper for a 240V circuit). I only ask because a "tandem" breaker is one that occupies ONE panel space, but has 2 levers on it, so both of these wires are connected to the same phase of power and will not provide 240V.
8) You need to open the wiring compartments of your heaters and check there also. Open BOTH ends, as you should verify that only ONE end has a power cable coming from the wall. If BOTH ends have power cables from the wall, the circuits are definetly wired wrong. See what I mean? You must completely look at everything, because we can't.



This is why pictures are best - they provide all the answers to the nitty-gritty questions that are necessary to know in order to troubleshoot this.

The pics, along with your voltage readings would get very far in this problem.

Now, once again, here's what you need to do. If you don't do all of it, don't bother doing any of it:

1) Take a picture of your breaker panel connection, each tstat box, and each heater connection box, and post them.

2) Do the same power checks you just did, but write down the reading for each black (blk) wire vs. white (wh), each blk vs. ground (gnd), and each wh vs. gnd. Yes, this includes ALL tstat and heater boxes even if you say there is "no power". Only tell us there is "no power" if ALL tests in that box have 0 volts.

3) Turn the tstat OFF (assuming it was ON before since you said power = yes) and repeat the tests.

4) Turn the tstat back ON and turn the breaker OFF and repeat the tests.

willis
 
  #44  
Old 09-06-08, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
You mean nobody can solve this? This should be elementary!
Yes, it should be, but it isn't going that way in this case.

We can only ask that the poster give us specific info and we can tell him what to check. And we fully depend on the authenticity of that info and cannot assume anything about the info, the method of gathering the info, etc.

We cannot enter his condo and do our own tests and notice visual clues that would provide a "eureka!" moment. So, this is as good as it's gonna get.

willis
 
  #45  
Old 09-06-08, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
Just wondering...when you said power at all 3 white wires on the functional heater, did you cut power and untwist them? I mean so each wire was completely seperate from all the others? I might be missing something, I didn't draw it out.
No, I just removed the nut to check for power with the three twisted together.

To me, that proved there is power going from the supply to the t-stat, to the heater, and continuing on the curcuit to ?

If I untwisted the wires, only one of them should be hot I would think?
 
  #46  
Old 09-06-08, 05:29 PM
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Yes, thats what I was wondering...only one hot is correct. And the problem is between that point and the next one on the circuit. But since both legs are dead at the next circuit (one of the 2 with 3 cables coming in), it's prob not just a loose connection, as I said before.

Wow that would have thrown something into the mix if there had been 2 hots out of 3. Though I don't think thats possible w/o major arcs and sparks.

I see willis is all over posting suggestions. Prob better advise than I could give. My house it's a different story...lol

Like I said, just looking at things from a DIY ex-electronics guy. I'm still betting on cut wire or hidden disconnect based on what we know so far.
 
  #47  
Old 09-06-08, 05:39 PM
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Here are a few pictures to get started.
T-stat boxes following shortly....


Breaker box located in Bedroom #2
Bedroom circuit is left bank, 3rd and 4th breaker from the top


Master bedroom heater at left. Looking towards master bath



Master bedroom t-stat on wall at left


Hallway. Bedroom #2 at left, main bath at right, master bedroom straight ahead.


Main bath looking towards bedroom #2


Master bath
 
  #48  
Old 09-06-08, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
To me, that proved there is power going from the supply to the t-stat, to the heater, and continuing on the curcuit to ?
...to... into the element, and out the other (supposed to be hot) wire, connected to the other end of the heater element loop, for 240.
 
  #49  
Old 09-06-08, 05:47 PM
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Here are the t-stat boxes. I don't have pics of the wall heater wiring but all have a single cable going to each.
I have print out replies for additonal testing, willis.
Hang with me gunguy45... I really want to solve this before the electrician comes back on Tuesday.


Bedroom #2 - The only one working



Bedroom #2 again



Master bedroom



Master bath



Main bath
 
  #50  
Old 09-06-08, 06:20 PM
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Looks like your house wiring in the boxes is just black and white, and the mention of red adds confusion. The black and red stat wires are short wires (common in every photo), probably stranded wire that probably came attached to the stats and have no bearing on the color. The only colors that matter are what are at the wire nuts 6 inches beyond the stat's stranded black and red wires.

DO those breakers you show on the left have bars that connect them to make them 2-pole? Therefore as previously mentioned by others, ARE these 240 or 120? A voltmeter test at these breakers, with probes of a voltmeter put on each next-to-each other breaker that look 'tandem" would confirm if 120 or 240.

BTW, I've worked on plenty electric heater components and associated wiring and found shorts, bad elements, bad internal stats, and hooked up brand new heaters and stats with single and double pole thermostats and units that have positive off and others that will never shut completely off, but can still come on automatically if temp gets below 45 degrees. So I really understand such systems, in case you have doubts. Along with all kinds of experience wire trouble shooting. Never been snafued.
 
  #51  
Old 09-06-08, 06:27 PM
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woo-hoo!!!

Thanks for the pics. Don't mean to be a pest, but could you spread out those wire groups in your tstats so we can see all the cables in the box and where their wires go?
 
  #52  
Old 09-06-08, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
DO those breakers you show on the left have bars that connect them to make them 2-pole? .
Yes, the two breaker are connected.


Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
Therefore as previously mentioned by others, ARE these 240 or 120? A voltmeter test at these breakers, with probes of a voltmeter put on each next-to-each other breaker that look 'tandem" would confirm if 120 or 240.
120 each breaker
 
  #53  
Old 09-06-08, 06:43 PM
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Ok electricians tell me if I'm wrong, but aren't the winged wirenuts relatively new? As in maybe 10 yrs? All I remember workin with Dad was the std gooved kind.

Hey modelsforu, if I was closer I'd be helpin ya! I'll be here...
 
  #54  
Old 09-06-08, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by williswires View Post
woo-hoo!!!

Thanks for the pics. Don't mean to be a pest, but could you spread out those wire groups in your tstats so we can see all the cables in the box and where their wires go?
I thought you might ask for that. Once I got home and looked better at the pictures, it wasn't very clear. It will be dark in a couple of hours so I will head back tomorrow for better pictures. I printed out your email and will assemble answers for all.
Is the picture of the breaker panel sufficient?


Originally Posted by williswires View Post
5) When you state "no power", where exactly are you connecting your meter - for example, between black & white?, or between black and ground? between white & ground? BE SPECIFIC!
all ways... b&b, b&w, w&w, B&gr and w&gr.
I am using an Ideal voltage tester, catalogue #61-065. It tells me 120, 240 or of course, 0.
 
  #55  
Old 09-06-08, 06:50 PM
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So you can grab just one of the toggles, and the one tandem with it also goes off without you grabbing that other toggle? And you confirmed that the 2 breaker wires next to each other of the tandem are indeed producing 240 by seeing it on a meter? Just making sure here. I never take anything for granted, and it cuts down on possible time wasted.
 
  #56  
Old 09-06-08, 06:50 PM
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For what it's worth, all four tstat have the same date on the back (from 1986) so it's not readily obvious that any recent changes were made.
Oops, I said "obvious" .
 
  #57  
Old 09-06-08, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
Here are a few pictures to get started.
T-stat boxes following shortly....


Breaker box located in Bedroom #2
Bedroom circuit is left bank, 3rd and 4th breaker from the top

Please take another picture of this box with higher resolution and a flash, and/or confirm this question.

For accuracy, the breaker spots in a panel are labelled like this:
1---2
3---4
5---6
7---8
etc

Your spot #1 & spot#3 is a double pole breaker for 240V.
Your spot #5 & spot#7 appears to be two single-pole breakers with a handle-tie applied. I say this because usually any single breaker assembly will usually have only one set of data/info printed on it (or have one sticker). For spot #5 and #7 I see two sets of info. If it is 2 single pole breakers, they will supply 240V.
Your spots #9 and 11 are examples of a tandem breaker as described before (just for info).

What I'm wondering is not very clear on your picture. My first question is this:

1) Do the black wire on spot# 5 and the white on spot# 7 come from the same cable? They should be (must be!). It appears from the picture that it is possible the black on spot #5 goes with the white on spot#3 (if so, - wrong). Same goes for the black on spot#1 and the white on spot#3 - must be part of the same cable. (Enlarging your pic and following the wires it appears possible they are mixed up)

willis
 

Last edited by williswires; 09-06-08 at 07:08 PM. Reason: edited to use correct panel space numbers
  #58  
Old 09-06-08, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
So you can grab just one of the toggles, and the one tandem with it also goes off without you grabbing that other toggle?
Yes.


Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
And you confirmed that the 2 breaker wires next to each other of the tandem are indeed producing 240 by seeing it on a meter? Just making sure here. I never take anything for granted, and it cuts down on possible time wasted.
Yes. I put my Ideal voltage tester across the black and white wires and it read 240v.
 
  #59  
Old 09-06-08, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
Is the picture of the breaker panel sufficient?
See my post with a question...

Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
all ways... b&b, b&w, w&w, B&gr and w&gr.
I am using an Ideal voltage tester, catalogue #61-065. It tells me 120, 240 or of course, 0.
OK, but you should be seeing different voltages. For the power cable coming into the boxes, B&W should be 240V. B&G and W&G of this cable should be only 120V. That's why details are required.

willis
 
  #60  
Old 09-06-08, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by williswires View Post
Please take another picture of this box with higher resolution and a flash, and/or confirm this question.

Your spot #1 & spot#2 is a double pole breaker for 240V.
I will check.

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
Your spot #3 & spot#4 is appears to be two single-pole breakers with a handle-tie applied. I say this because usually any single breaker assembly will usually have only one set of data/info printed on it (or have one sticker). For spot #3 and #4 I see two sets. If it is 2 single pole breakers, they will supply 240V..
That is correct. #3 and #4 are two single pole breakers. They each hold the black and white wire for the bedroom heating circuit (single cable).

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
What I'm wondering is not very clear on your picture. My first question is this:

1) Do the black wire on spot# 3 and the white on spot# 4 come from the same cable?
Yes.
 
  #61  
Old 09-06-08, 08:05 PM
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Even though the 2 single pole breakers can technically supply 240V when used together, if they are supplying a 240V load then they should be changed to a 2-pole breaker. The reason is that the 2-pole breaker will provide a common trip as required by the NEC for a 240V load. This means that if one phase of the 240V trips, then both phases of the circuit will open from the internal design of the breaker.

Using two single-pole breakers with a handle tie does not ensure that both poles will trip. In fact, it is more likely that the other pole will NOT trip when the first one does. Breakers are really not designed to provide the force necessary to trip another breaker who is connected by a handle tie.

Connecting breakers by a handle tie should only be for multi-wire branch circuits (MWBC). MWBCs are special in that they are two separate 120V circuits that share the same neutral wire. They can, because they are on separate phases (forget the rest of the explanation). Using a handle tie to tie the two breakers together makes sure that when you turn off the power to one of the circuits on the MWBC, you end up turning off BOTH circuits that use the single white neutral wire so there is no power still flowing around in the neutral that you will probably be disconnecting.

With that in mind, if you truly have a 240V heater circuit on spot# 5 and 7, then it should be changed to a 2-pole breaker. If your heaters are 120V, then that complicates things even more, but I think I remember that you said they are 240 when you gave the heater sizes. Isn't that what the nameplates said?


willis
 
  #62  
Old 09-06-08, 10:34 PM
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Yes, the heaters are 240. Back to the condo in the morning with camera and forum printouts in hand...
 
  #63  
Old 09-07-08, 11:25 AM
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I feel like jumping right thru this monitor and fixing your problem.

All those white wires tied together are say the outgoing 120 leg to all the heaters [one may be the actual hot 120 feed line from the panel box, and the others nutted-in then energize as the outgoing 120 wires to the heaters. So technically then, each white wire goes from heater to electrical panel box, on one leg. While other (black)leg is on your single pole stat. And whose path is also from panel box on 2nd leg and goes to stat, out of stat and over to other side of heater coil. (Other side from the white wire on the other side of the heater coil)].

Therefore, if you go to just one stat box and put your test lead between a stat wire and the white nutted wires, you should get 240 right then and there. If not, try testing between the OTHER stat wire and the white wires, with the stat turned up for testing!

If no 240, then I'd test each of the 2 stat wires to bare ground wire and then do same to the white nutted wires to ground to see which is missing 120, then move on from there, depending on what I found.

If I found 120 between one stat wire and bare ground, but not between the OTHER stat wire and ground, with the stat turned way up, then the stat is bad.

If I found the 240 between the stat and white nutted wires, I'd then go to the heater and test for 240 there on each side of the element. If it were there, I'd ohms test the heating coil for resistance. If you had 240 at the heater, it be a given then the element is burned up, actually.

This is presuming now there is nothing weird, like an internal heater thermostat that is still in play, that someone inadvertantly left in the wiring of the heater! You see, in at least baseboard heaters, they come with built in thermostats in the unit itself. If you use a wall thermostat you do not want the one in the heater to be working. Just the one on the wall. So if say someone wired up the heater stat in series on a leg in the heater, and it was shot, you would be fooled!

Obviously when you test stat wires, you have to turn up the stats to higher than room temperature, and for testing purposes to be sure, turn them up a lot, temporarily.

One can easily now draw a picture of how your system was done with the black stat wires, and the white nutted wires, and the stats and heaters, and this is like Electrical 101.
 

Last edited by ecman51; 09-07-08 at 11:52 AM. Reason: added more
  #64  
Old 09-07-08, 06:46 PM
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There is one more items but only useally affected with fan forced wall heater some of them have thermal one time fuse also sometime it can casuse malfuction as well.

But as far for troubleshooting other guys nailed right on the spot for good way to verify the system voltage.

Merci,Marc
 
  #65  
Old 09-07-08, 09:10 PM
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More pictures in several posts....


Breaker panel


Breaker panel


Breaker panel
 

Last edited by modelsforu; 09-07-08 at 09:12 PM. Reason: corrected links
  #66  
Old 09-07-08, 09:15 PM
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Bedroom #2 tstat


Bedroom #2 tstat


Bedroom #2 heater
 
  #67  
Old 09-07-08, 09:18 PM
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Main bath tstat


Main bath tstat


Main bath heater
 
  #68  
Old 09-07-08, 09:27 PM
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Tstat master bedroom


heater master bedroom
(no picture, camera battery died)


master bath tstat


master bath heater
 
  #69  
Old 09-07-08, 09:36 PM
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since your bedroom breakers are marked "common trip" by the mfg, this is OK - you do not have to replace with a different 2-pole

willis
 
  #70  
Old 09-07-08, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by williswires View Post
1) Which black wire from which cable is pigtailed and is tied where? etc. (This is why I asked for pictures).
Main Bath, bedroom #2, master bedroomcable #1 - BLACK pigtailed to cable #2 BLACK and BLACK (lower) wire on tstat. All three white twisted together.

cable #2 - BLACK pigtailed to cable #1 BLACK and BLACK (lower) wire on tstat. All three white twisted together.

cable #3 - BLACK pigtailed to red (upper) wire on tstat. All three white twisted together.

Master bathcable #1 - BLACK connected to BLACK (lower) wire on tstat. Both white twisted together.

cable #2 - BLACK connected to Red (lower) wire on tstat. Both white twisted together.

Voltage

Bedroom #2 (the only working heater)

Voltage at tstat with tstat on HIGH
Red (top wire of tstat) and ground = 120v
Black (bottom wire of tstat) and ground = 120v
Across top and bottom of tstat = 0

Voltage at tstat with tstat on LO
Red (top wire of tstat) and ground = 120v
Black (bottom wire of tstat) and ground = 120v
Across top and bottom of tstat = 240v

Voltage tester lead broke and that is as far as I got. Today was not my day!

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
3) What exact brands and model #s are your tstats?
The tstats say, "AVERISSEMENT HAUTE TENSION 859M ROOM THERMOSTAT" no obvious (to me) brand name.[/quote]

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
4) Do the cables resemble each other from box to box both in cable outer covering colors (white, off-white, gray, yellow, etc) and wire sizes (box leaving one box is 12 AWG but the next box has 14 AWG - shows that they are not the same cable)?
Yes.

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
6) Is the ground wire connected in your panel? (it should be)
Yes.

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
7) You mention "tandem" breakers. Did you mean two normal sized breakers next to each other? (this is proper for a 240V circuit). I only ask because a "tandem" breaker is one that occupies ONE panel space, but has 2 levers on it, so both of these wires are connected to the same phase of power and will not provide 240V.
Yes, two breakers. I had the wrong term when I said tandem.


I know that my checks are probably not complete but I hope I am getting closer.
 
  #71  
Old 09-07-08, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
[B]
Voltage at tstat with tstat on HIGH
Red (top wire of tstat) and ground = 120v
Black (bottom wire of tstat) and ground = 120v
Across top and bottom of tstat = 0
normal.


Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
Voltage at tstat with tstat on LO
Red (top wire of tstat) and ground = 120v
Black (bottom wire of tstat) and ground = 120v
Across top and bottom of tstat = 240v
NORMAL

Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
[The tstats say, "AVERISSEMENT HAUTE TENSION 859M ROOM THERMOSTAT" no obvious (to me) brand name.
Help me out here, french277v - I think it says "warning - hi voltage room thermostat"???

Here's the lowdown on your circuit.


IF the 3 bad tstats and heaters ARE on your Bedroom 2 circuit which is working, then you SHOULD at least have 120V vs. ground at ALL white wire nuts. (white to ground = 120V).

If you do not, which is the case I think, then either (1) the white wire nut at the Bedroom 2 tstat is not making good connection, or (2) They are not on the circuit you think they are.

What is the result of your voltage test at the Bedroom 2 tstat when you shut off the breaker marked "BED HEAT"? If it stays on, then it is probably wired on the living room circuit. Try shutting that one off.


What is the circuit marked "tank" in the panel? I'm curious if this is the heater circuit instead, because it is OFF at this time and you have absolutely no power at 3 heaters. It also appears to enter the panel at the same exact place as your living room heater circuit.

willis
 
  #72  
Old 09-07-08, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by williswires View Post
normal.




NORMAL



Help me out here, french277v - I think it says "warning - hi voltage room thermostat"???

Here's the lowdown on your circuit.


IF the 3 bad tstats and heaters ARE on your Bedroom 2 circuit which is working, then you SHOULD at least have 120V vs. ground at ALL white wire nuts. (white to ground = 120V).
That is why I am so stumped. There is 0v measured at the white twisted wires (to ground) at all tstat boxes except the only one that works (bedroom #2).

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
If you do not, which is the case I think, then either (1) the white wire nut at the Bedroom 2 tstat is not making good connection, or (2) They are not on the circuit you think they are.
I do know for sure that the three twisted white wires in bedroom #2 have 120v (to ground) because I removed the wire nut and the wires remained twisted together. I checked them as a group and they had 120v.

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
What is the result of your voltage test at the Bedroom 2 tstat when you shut off the breaker marked "BED HEAT"? If it stays on, then it is probably wired on the living room circuit. Try shutting that one off.
I did and when the bedroom breaker is shut off, bedroom #2 heater stops accordingly.

Originally Posted by williswires View Post
What is the circuit marked "tank" in the panel? I'm curious if this is the heater circuit instead, because it is OFF at this time and you have absolutely no power at 3 heaters. It also appears to enter the panel at the same exact place as your living room heater circuit.
The breaker is for the hot water tank. At the beginning of this saga I turned it on as that seemed like the easy answer. It was not. Having the hwtank on made no difference.
 
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Old 09-07-08, 10:50 PM
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The tstats say, "AVERISSEMENT HAUTE TENSION 859M ROOM THERMOSTAT" no obvious (to me) brand name.
Williswire that statement it is in French and yes., it say " Warning High Voltage " room thermostat.


Any Chance do you have attic in your building ?? If so did you go up there and check for any damaged wired ??

sometime ya can get critter and eat up the wire and break it.

Now the other possiblty is that did someone took the nail or screw off from the wall ? if that the case somewhere in that area it can have a break in there.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 09-07-08, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post
Williswire that statement it is in French and yes., it say " Warning High Voltage " room thermostat.


Any Chance do you have attic in your building ?? If so did you go up there and check for any damaged wired ??

sometime ya can get critter and eat up the wire and break it.

Now the other possiblty is that did someone took the nail or screw off from the wall ? if that the case somewhere in that area it can have a break in there.

Merci,Marc
There is one floor above this condo.
Nails and screws? Great detective idea. Yes that is a possibility.

Okay here's another thought. The buiding is being resided to replace failed LP siding. At one point there was no power when the listing agent came to the unit one day. A main breaker in the building's basement was tripped.

I don't know what this could have to do with it though as all of the heaters and tstats are not anywheres near the outside wall.

We really don't know when these heaters last worked.
 
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Old 09-07-08, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
There is one floor above this condo.
Nails and screws? Great detective idea. Yes that is a possibility.

Okay here's another thought. The buiding is being resided to replace failed LP siding.

If you don't my question but can you fill me in what the "LP siding" ?

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 09-08-08, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post
If you don't my question but can you fill me in what the "LP siding" ?

Merci,Marc
It's fortunate for all that have not crossed it's path...

"The L-P (Louisiana-Pacific Corp.) siding, a concoction of wood scraps and resins, was installed on about 800,000 homes around the country from 1985 to 1995. It warped prematurely, rotted in wet weather and sprouted mushrooms and other fungus. Lawsuits sprouted as well, although L-P contended the problems stemmed mostly from faulty installation."
 
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Old 09-08-08, 07:59 AM
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I quickly skimmed every post since my last. This is fun to follow, but not fun for modelsforu, I am sure.

In reveiw, he confirmed his stats work, and with power. So THAT leg works. We might presume it continues onto the heaters. I can't recall reading confirmation of 120 at black heater wire to ground.

He has confirmed white leg is down (if for sure these are set up as 240 volt heaters) but nobody knows why. So it is a matter of detective work following the circuit back after of course absolutely confirming white wire has power at circuit panel. Bad wire nut somewhere a good possibilty. I have traced such problems down inside junction boxes already, where you see everything nutted and all appears good, yet with 3 or more wires nutted together, one wire can be loose enough up in the nut.

I wish modelsforu the best of luck in his quest.
 
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Old 09-08-08, 09:33 AM
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Hey models
When you originally checked the non working units for power to the thermostats.....
Did you check B-W (240), B-G (120), and W-G (120)? I know, it's been a while, but I just wondered, if you remember.

I know you checked the functional one just the other day and you did it that way.

Cause if you got nothing to ground on either one, then, as I said, both legs are off, to me that still means a cut cable or hidden disconnect. I'm sure the Pro's have seen 2 loose connections before, but I've normally only found one at a time on a bad circuit. If I had to guess (and I am aren't I?...lol), that looks like original wiring from the spray on the wires and all. A few of the wirenuts look new, possibly due to thermostat replacements? But the way some are pigtailed to the thermostats instead of twisting the therm lead in with the main cables suggests a pretty good electrician did the work. No need to unscrew the main feeds to replace a thermo.

EDIT: Ahh I see in post # 72 you did verify that, so I'm betting you did the same with the black. Nevermind...

Is it possible any of the wires run near the exterior wall? Were the siders using saws to remove the old stuff?


@ecman....I think he has confirmed that he has no power at the stats (white or black) after the first working unit in BR2. Gotta get power into the box before you can send it anywhere else, right?


Ok, models, you pay for gas and I'll leave in 2 hrs...lol...wait, nowadays that would prob cost more than a good electrician working there for 3 hrs!


Man, I could make a million bucks if I came up with a cheap way to scan a wall for broken wires. Superman Xray vision maybe?
 

Last edited by Gunguy45; 09-08-08 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 09-08-08, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
I quickly skimmed every post since my last. This is fun to follow, but not fun for modelsforu, I am sure.

In reveiw, he confirmed his stats work, and with power. So THAT leg works. We might presume it continues onto the heaters. I can't recall reading confirmation of 120 at black heater wire to ground.
That is correct for bedroom #2, the only working heater.


Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
He has confirmed white leg is down (if for sure these are set up as 240 volt heaters) but nobody knows why. So it is a matter of detective work following the circuit back after of course absolutely confirming white wire has power at circuit panel.
Yes. Both black and white wire at panel have 120v each.


Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
Bad wire nut somewhere a good possibilty. I have traced such problems down inside junction boxes already, where you see everything nutted and all appears good, yet with 3 or more wires nutted together, one wire can be loose enough up in the nut.
The three white wired in the Bedroom #2 tstat all have power (with the nut off). That is most frustrating because no other white wire has power, with the exception of the white wire and the panel.

What is odd, is that the tstat in the masterbedroom is the closest tstat (it is on the opposite side of the same wall as the breaker panel, ofset by about a foot) yet it does not work but bedroom #2 does.

Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
I wish modelsforu the best of luck in his quest.
Thanks!
 
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Old 09-08-08, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
That is correct for bedroom #2, the only working heater.
Do you similarly have black-wire power thru the other 2 stats, whose heaters are not working? I am presuming so. But has that been confirmed?


The three white wired in the Bedroom #2 tstat all have power (with the nut off). That is most frustrating because no other white wire has power, with the exception of the white wire and the panel.
You mean that even after you *separate* the 3 white wires (that are nutted together), that all *3* are still energized with 120? This is a very important question. I have a thought but need for you to answer that. What is likely happening is you are getting backfeed through at least the working heater's black wire path and it is going through that element and returning on the white wire. So of the 3 white wires, one MAY be the power feed, one may have that backfeed I just explained, and the other white wire maybe also has a backfeed. But I need you to confirm you have white-to ground 120 at all 3 white wires when seperated.

If white wires are all seperated, and you know they ALL had 120 power, then make sure all stats are turned OFF. If your stats do not turn to an actual off setting, but instead turn only to a low (say)45 degree setting(does not have to have that number on stat, some say LO), then you need to unnut one of the stat wires from each stat and THEN see which of thsoe white wires is still hot so we no longer get black wire through heater element back feed.

What is odd, is that the tstat in the masterbedroom is the closest tstat (it is on the opposite side of the same wall as the breaker panel, ofset by about a foot) yet it does not work but bedroom #2 does.
This info alone does no help. Need specifics on black and white wire tests, ohms resistance through element, if 120 can go through the stat when turned on, for this one.

..........................

Coincidently, I left and came back -to go work on electric 240 baseboard heater that had low heat! Found problem in about 10 minutes. Element wire burned off inside the heater completely and 1 leg of power (120 current) was able to go through broken half of element where obvious it is contacting metal and completing 120 current through the heater's bare ground wire, allowing for at least low heat. Need new heater and capped of lines for now for safety.
 
 

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