Why is there no power to the Cadet heaters?

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  #81  
Old 09-08-08, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
Hey models
When you originally checked the non working units for power to the thermostats.....
Did you check B-W (240), B-G (120), and W-G (120)? I know, it's been a while, but I just wondered, if you remember.

I know you checked the functional one just the other day and you did it that way.

Cause if you got nothing to ground on either one, then, as I said, both legs are off, to me that still means a cut cable or hidden disconnect. I'm sure the Pro's have seen 2 loose connections before, but I've normally only found one at a time on a bad circuit. If I had to guess (and I am aren't I?...lol), that looks like original wiring from the spray on the wires and all. A few of the wirenuts look new, possibly due to thermostat replacements? But the way some are pigtailed to the thermostats instead of twisting the therm lead in with the main cables suggests a pretty good electrician did the work. No need to unscrew the main feeds to replace a thermo.

EDIT: Ahh I see in post # 72 you did verify that, so I'm betting you did the same with the black. Nevermind...

Is it possible any of the wires run near the exterior wall? Were the siders using saws to remove the old stuff?


@ecman....I think he has confirmed that he has no power at the stats (white or black) after the first working unit in BR2. Gotta get power into the box before you can send it anywhere else, right?

All tstats are dated 1986 on the stamp on the back so I would believe them to be original as that is about when the building was built.

I don't know if plywood was replaced in the area outside the condo or just the tar paper and siding... I would doubt that the wire is in that area based on the panel, tstats and heater locations but who knows?

Correct on the power at Bedroom #2 but nowhere else.

 
  #82  
Old 09-08-08, 10:34 AM
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By eliminating the backfeed being sent through an operational stat, on through the element, and up the return white wire has to be eliminated, in the testing, by taking the stat out of play, as I mentioned in my post before. Has to be done, to find out which white wires remain live, and in which stat boxes, if we are to hone in on failure locations better.

In further testing ohms tests can be take between white heater wires and the white stat box wires [With powrer on circuit OFF and wires disconnected at each end!] to see which white wire belongs to which heater white wire.

I should be at work right now, but this almost bothers me, as I feel I could find it. I have a mental visual comprehension of the heater and stat circuits, right in my head, and I can easily sketch such a map. I do this stuff al the time, and actually have uncovered buried wires in walls and ceilings from testing, ohms testing over long distances with extension cords to help me, wire tracer electrical tool, etc. I have a 'nothing is ever going to get the best of ME attitude.' I do have to go do some (more)work now.
 
  #83  
Old 09-08-08, 11:30 AM
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cadet heaters

after reading the posts it sounds like the box with the working thermostat has got missed wired. very simple circuit. three wires power in power out (next thermo box) and wire to heater. shut off power and label each pair of wires. turn power back on and find out which is now hot. ok one down two to go. next you need to find which one of the remaining two wires goes to the next box with the three pairs in it. either by using a meter with continuity or by connecting one pair at a time and checking for power. this will be power out. the last wire goes to the heater. your thermostat opens only one hot line so white wire together black feed wires go to black on thermo and red thermo wire goes to other black wire (one that goes to heater) should work after this but should follow steps for next box as to make sure this is wired correctly and also for the remaining box making sure the black feed is on the black thermostat wire.

good luck and be very careful
 
  #84  
Old 09-08-08, 11:49 AM
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Break out the multimeter. It's time to do a continuity check on the cables.

NOTE: Turn off the circuit breaker. Take a voltage reading to ensure the power is OFF

NOTE: Identify the wires before removing any wire nuts.

a. Remove the wire nuts from the wires that supply the heaters at the three non-working t-stat boxes. One wire is spliced to the thermostat.

b. Turn the dial on the multimeter to ohms (resistance).

b. Touch the multimeter's red probe to the white wire and the black probe to the black wire supplying the heaters at the t-stat box.

NOTE: The multimeter's needle will deflect if you have continuity through the wires and heaters.

Repeat for the other non-functional heaters.

Next: Process of Elimination.

Bedroom 2 t-stat box:

1. Identify and cap off the two wires supplying power to the first t-stat (Bedroom 2?) with yellow wire nuts.

NOTE: The supply cables are daisy chained between the four t-stat boxes. The end of the line is the t-stat box in the Master Bath

2. Identify the two wires feeding the working heater and note (twist together).

3. Splice the wires in the unidentified cable together at the first t-stat box.

4. Remove the wire nuts from the wires at the other 3 t-stat boxes.

NOTE: Identify the wires supplying the heater and twist together.

5. Go to the t-stat box that is closest to the working t-stat box.

NOTE: This t-stat box may or may not be the next in line with the working t-stat box. You may have to take readings at other t-stat boxes to determine the daisy chain order.

6. Touch the multimeterís black probe to the black wire and the red probe to the white wire of the first unidentified cable.

NOTE: The multimeter's needle will deflect if you have continuity through the wires.

7. Touch the multimeterís black probe to the black wire and the red probe to the white wire of the second unidentified cable.

8. Identify the cable that has continuity from the working t-stat box to the non-working t-stat box where you are testing the wires. This is the power-in cable from the working t-stat box.

9. Splice those two wires together and identify them as power in.

10. Splice the wires in the second identified cable and label them as power out.


11. Repeat the process for the other two t-stat boxes

12. If all wires and heaters check out good, wire nut of the all of the wires back to their original configuration.

NOTE: Check to make sure all splices are made up before turning on the circuit breaker.

13. Turn on the circuit breaker and test the t-stats and heaters.
 
  #85  
Old 09-08-08, 04:47 PM
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There are quite a few chefs in this kitchen.

Without reading this whole thread all over, has this one very elementary test been performed where you check to see if you have 240 at any of the heaters that do not work?, by simply turning up the stats, then finding the black wire at the heater, and the white wire at the heater, and seeing if you have 240 there by touching your test meter probes to both?

Then you would know if the wires were both good (hot-connected to what they should be) and if say they WERE creating 240, that then someone hooked something up wrong in the heater, or the element is burned out. This is actually the very first test that should have been done. Then after results are found, THEN, you backtrack.

Or, if you did NOT find 240 at the heater wires, but found 120 at the black wire to ground test, and 0 volts at the white wire to ground test, right at the heater, with the stat turned up, then you continue on your search as to where the white wire is disconnected.

The reason why so many people are coming out of the woodwork on this thread is that everyone posting here knows this is a basic wiring layout, and they are bound and determined to help you figure this out.
 
  #86  
Old 09-08-08, 04:55 PM
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I just wanna see a good short order cook get in there and whip something up!!
 
  #87  
Old 09-08-08, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post
There are quite a few chefs in this kitchen.

Without reading this whole thread all over, has this one very elementary test been performed where you check to see if you have 240 at any of the heaters that do not work?, by simply turning up the stats, then finding the black wire at the heater, and the white wire at the heater, and seeing if you have 240 there by touching your test meter probes to both?

Then you would know if the wires were both good (hot-connected to what they should be) and if say they WERE creating 240, that then someone hooked something up wrong in the heater, or the element is burned out. This is actually the very first test that should have been done. Then after results are found, THEN, you backtrack.

Or, if you did NOT find 240 at the heater wires, but found 120 at the black wire to ground test, and 0 volts at the white wire to ground test, right at the heater, with the stat turned up, then you continue on your search as to where the white wire is disconnected.

The reason why so many people are coming out of the woodwork on this thread is that everyone posting here knows this is a basic wiring layout, and they are bound and determined to help you figure this out.
I have so many notes on what I've done, I will have to recheck them. I wasn't able to go back over after work today and will have to wait as the electrician arrives at 9am tomorrow morning. My wife will be calling me after she hears something - question for all: Should I mention what I have checked or leave well enough alone? I don't want to leave open that the electrician might think that I have monkeyed with the circuit. I have been very careful during this process and didn,t want to complicate matters. I will check in after an evening walk. Thanks much.
 
  #88  
Old 09-09-08, 07:56 AM
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Well, I'd just tell them you checked for voltage and found it good at the functional heater, but nothing anywhere else. Leave it at that, don't want to put preconcieved ideas in their head.

He should start out by doing the same things you have done anyway, just maybe a little more in depth (disconnecting wires and checking for breaks etc).
 
  #89  
Old 09-09-08, 08:17 AM
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One part of me tells me to say to you to not hardly say anything. To just take him around and show where everything is and what works and what doesn't.

The other part of me wants me to have you tell him, but to also tell him you absolutely did not rehook up wires wrong, so that he can feel really good about his professional skills that allowed him to diagnose what the commoner could not.

Personally, once I am starting to try to figure it out, I prefer the resident to go off and leave me alone so I can think in peace. And I SURELY do not want some know-it-all standing there telling me all this stuff it might be. I have had people do that to me, on rare occassions, and I look at them and ask them that if they knew that much, why am *I* here, and that THEY didn't fix it themselves?

On these call-in radio shows I listen to on Saturday mornings, the host of the show will say what he thinks the problem is and the caller will say, "That is what *I* was thinking it might be". I'd be tempted if I was to be the host, to say, "You did huh? Why then didn't you tell me you possibly thought that before I told you, then?
 
  #90  
Old 09-09-08, 09:58 AM
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I would also just let the electrician be so he can think it through.

modelsforu, can you imagine how many of us are just waiting for the explanation of your problem? It's kindof like a birthday to a kid - you just can't wait for it to get here!

willis
 
  #91  
Old 09-09-08, 10:11 AM
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I am at work and my wife is letting the electrician in. He knows the minimal basics - bedroom #2 heater works and the other three do not. I have decided not to say that I have sent what seems like weeks in that empty condo carting all of you there with me. I just don't want to have him think that helper was trying to do the cooks job in the kitchen.
I will be sure post the latest (if anything) at my lunch time in 2-1/2 hours or so.
I am hoping to report

...to be continued....
 
  #92  
Old 09-09-08, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by williswires View Post
I would also just let the electrician be so he can think it through.
willis
That is what me wife would tell me if i wasn't at work.
 
  #93  
Old 09-09-08, 12:32 PM
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...no calls from the electrician yet...
 
  #94  
Old 09-09-08, 01:42 PM
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tick tock, tick tock.....ka-ching!
 
  #95  
Old 09-09-08, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by williswires View Post
modelsforu, can you imagine how many of us are just waiting for the explanation of your problem? It's kindof like a birthday to a kid - you just can't wait for it to get here!

willis
Exactly!

I have even been thinking of you at work!, wondering if after I got through working today that we'd learn the answer. Like---loose wire nut. $149. I could put a smiley face but that would not be funny.
 
  #96  
Old 09-09-08, 05:50 PM
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I hate to extend the suspense but my wife who knows far less than I do about electricity said that she was told that the electrician said he is confident to get them all working. She said that he will be disconnecting the original wires and running a new cable and making sure some existing cables are disconnected. She also mentioned other stuff that made little sense to me so I am not including it.
Her translation doesn't tell me much and with as much time as we all have in this a better answer than that is deserved. I think all my wife really heard was that that the heaters will work again.
She meets with him tomorrow at 10am (PDT) to find out exactly what he will do. I will see if I can get ahold of him tonight to get a better idea what he found and how he will remedy it.
A national audience is waiting!
 
  #97  
Old 09-09-08, 06:00 PM
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96 posts (ok, now 97) to something that should be soooo simple. Of course it's not.

I think it was way back when, that someone said "just run a new wire".

But I'm sure not going back to look.
 
  #98  
Old 09-09-08, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by modelsforu View Post
I hate to extend the suspense but my wife who knows far less than I do about electricity said that she was told that the electrician said he is confident to get them all working. She said that he will be disconnecting the original wires and running a new cable and making sure some existing cables are disconnected. She also mentioned other stuff that made little sense to me so I am not including it.
Her translation doesn't tell me much and with as much time as we all have in this a better answer than that is deserved. I think all my wife really heard was that that the heaters will work again.
She meets with him tomorrow at 10am (PDT) to find out exactly what he will do. I will see if I can get ahold of him tonight to get a better idea what he found and how he will remedy it.
A national audience is waiting!
International audience, actually.

So he was there today for a couple hours? Now he has to come back? He feels the wire is disconnected somewheres where he can't find where? So he will run new? And all of it? To all 3 or 4?

He should be able to isolate which white wire goes to which heater by white wire ohms testing between stat boxes and heaters (every white wire everywhere has to be unnutted to be accurate about this!), and isolate it. I'm getting afraid this might really cost you lots of money because he is not honing in on what I feel he should be able to do, IMO. I can't comprehend how *3* heaters are out, and the wire is there, and he thinks he has to run wire again to all 3? As if all 3 have a problem? I can't believe it!

I hope you plan on getting some estimate from him.

This is starting to remind me of how one boss I had, hired out pro to fix oil burner and got bill for $900, and I later had to fix it a couple weeks later when it did same thing for like $40 or so.

I'm being serious to you about this, too.

Has this guy actually done that continuity test? Or, due to the layout, does he simply think he can almost run wire faster than his tests, and be over and done with it, say, if a basement were below?
 
  #99  
Old 09-09-08, 08:01 PM
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i wish the hell i lived on the other coast so i could fix this for ya sounds like by the time this guy is done you could of flown myself and my helper out there wine and dine us for the week and still save money. but the most important thing would be that we would all know what went wrong in the first place. 25 years in the business and i have never seen romex just break on its own or fade away in a wall.
 
  #100  
Old 09-09-08, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jjkjr View Post
i wish the hell i lived on the other coast so i could fix this for ya sounds like by the time this guy is done you could of flown myself and my helper out there wine and dine us for the week and still save money. but the most important thing would be that we would all know what went wrong in the first place. 25 years in the business and i have never seen romex just break on its own or fade away in a wall.
Should have invited you over. Long time ago I had a receptacle just go dead while I was at work. No real load on it, no one home when it happened. I hate a mystery too. The NM was easy enough to trace in the attic. Actually cut the NM at the entrance to the stud bay eventually. Had power there where it entered but no power 6 feet down. I did consider opening the wall but really needed it up and running so just dropped new NM.

I know it is frustrating for us who have followed this but as I said back on page one (or was it two) sometimes the quickest way is just new wire. If your paying for it that may well be the cheapest route.
 
  #101  
Old 09-09-08, 08:40 PM
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Well I am back. I got ahold of the electrician and spoke to him for awhile. He used a bit of electric lingo that I was not familiar with including "toned it".
As it turns out, the circuit runs from the breaker box to bedroom #2, then back to the master bedroom, then main bathroom and finally the master bath. Kinda zig zag of a run.
He has never had a situation like this where both wires have separated or broken and if it were his place, he would open up the ceiling in a certain spot (he has worked in this group of condos before and is say he knows the runs) but since my wife is in a push to sell, he will disable the existing bad spot between bedroom #2 and the master bedroom.
The run from the master bedroom to main bath to master bath is a-ok so he will run a new wire from the breaker box to the tstat in the master. Most convenient is that the tstat in the master is less than a foot offset on the opposite side of the wall from the breaker panel so if I under stand it right, he will only have to drill through one stud and add a jbox on the wall next to the tstat box that will have a solid cover plate on it. NO sheetrock repair at all.

He has already had all 4 heaters running with a test cable. I estimate he has three hour into it so far. I will keep in touch with the final fix and cost.

I can't thank you all enough williswires,gunguy45, ecman51', thinman, jjkjr, ray2047, french277V and everyone else that I failed to mention and all those that followed the thread.

I will keep in touch and check in a little later.
 
  #102  
Old 09-09-08, 08:54 PM
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Thanks for letting us know the outcome of this situation I do understand it pretty tough troubleshooting.

The term " toneing " it more like a tracer with induced noise to track to see where the wire is break open or shorted one of the two.

Myself I useally use the toner or Megger if done right it can pinpoint pretty close where the curpit is.

Merci,Marc
 
  #103  
Old 09-09-08, 09:01 PM
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Well, I think we all pretty much knew it was a complete break/cut cable. Glad he is able to do a repair w/o too much work.

We called it "ohming out" the wire, no fancy stuff for us back in the day.

Things (sheeite) happens...get 'er done , thats what matters.
 
  #104  
Old 09-09-08, 09:37 PM
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You all had me going in the right direction. I appreciate your efforts despite my stumbling in understanding basic wiring.
100+ posts and 900+ views... whew!
I will post again tomorrow with the final results

Larry
 
  #105  
Old 09-10-08, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post
Myself I useally use the toner or Megger if done right it can pinpoint pretty close where the curpit is.

Merci,Marc
Is this a really special tool, or is it like my cheap magic marker wire tracer that beeps more quickly the closer you get to the hidden wire?

What I am wondering about -seeing the electrician never actually found the break -is what if he was using a tracer and due to the layout of the building, the wire went say 90 degrees inward away from him and he lost signal due to distance and it turns out wire nut was loose in a junction box outside the range of the wire tracer (like say the wire went to another box in some other room, or out of range up in attic or?)?

Mouse?, squirrel?, (and would those be realistic in modelsforu's building?). Nail or screw? (How likely are those with today's electrical codes requiring where wires are to be located, and metal plates to cover places where wires could get hit by nails or screw? Or simply elctrician did not find the right junction box?

In 100 year old houses you run into all kinds of weird things that can cause wires to break, where wires are bent and srtretched tight thru settling beams, wires along the floor behind baseboards, up in old attics with mice, bats and squirrels, etc. But - in this condo?

I have to review some of this thread also. I thought modlesforu said he had 120 at black wire at heaters and this then should rule out a break through an entire romex cable.
 
  #106  
Old 09-10-08, 01:56 PM
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The only power was at the breaker box and at bedroom #2 which as I am told was the first tstat box in the circuit. Zero volts at all other heaters and tstats.
I have not heard from the electrician yet as to if the job is complete.
Everything points to a complete break/failure between the portion of the circuit that runs from Bedroom #2 and the master bedroom (the second tstat in the line of 4).
 
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Old 09-10-08, 06:19 PM
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I have been just sitting here, staring at the screen, reviewing all the posts and pictures, and really paying attention to the open panel box wiring.

Because the two top left breakers for the heaters are wired black, white, black, white - that means all blacks are on one leg and all whites are on another. Even if circuits got crossed, the 240 circuit would still work, regardless if even they got crossed between breakers.

It is impossible to mix up the white wires. The black ones you maybe could. But not the white ones for sure. The white ones are all just daisy chained and as long as every single one is nutted that means there would HAVE to be 120 power there.

But alas, there is not.

Therefore, the electrician is correct that there has to be a break in the line. So I pondered how.

Besides all the theories brought up, here is a scarier one: The romex may have been damaged. Something of weight may have crimped the wire,or it got wrecked when they strung it and pulled it thru 90 degree bends in 2 x 4 corner studs or something, and literally turned 12 gauge wire into say 16 -18 gauge wire. And it burned itself in half right in the wall, without tripping the breaker, because a 16 -18 gauge fusible link (in essense) could burn (like a lamp cord could) without tripping a 20 amp breaker.

Otherwise I have no explanation that if all white wires are hooked up everywhere, how the power could not be there, everywhere that the white wires are.
 
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Old 09-10-08, 06:54 PM
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Ecman51.,

The toner and megger is kinda specality tools and not all electricians will have this but a well stock shop will have this tool on hand.

The toner will induce high HZ to read in the walls where is the break in the wall or used to trace where the wire ended in the wall and yes it is common to find a break in the circuit.

The megger will work almost the same as the toner will but really induced the voltage in the system and when any nick or break in the wires it will show up.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 09-11-08, 08:10 AM
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French,

Thanks.

Have you actually found the breaks?, and found many to be caused by the same type of thing, and if so, what is it? It be nice to know, because that way one may know what to look for, or what to be careful of, as to avoid such breaks, if possible.

Have you ever heard of even say a factory defect in the wire gauge size, in some section of it, where there is a thin spot in the Romex?, and it burns through?

I wonder if modelsforu will get off with under a $600 bill? Hopefully he did not say that it was an estate and pending sale for rich mother-in-law who died with lots of money.
 
  #110  
Old 09-11-08, 08:40 AM
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Nope, he said the condo was the extent of the estate. And with a reverse mortgage to boot.
 
  #111  
Old 09-11-08, 11:21 AM
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The megger will work almost the same as the toner will but really induced the voltage in the system and when any nick or break in the wires it will show up.
I can see it showing there is a break but can it show where in a ceiling or wail?
 
  #112  
Old 09-11-08, 05:42 PM
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A rich M-I-L would be nice but no. My mother in-law took out the reverse mortgage as she was close to living on credit cards. A reverse mortgage is an expensive way to have cash but in many cases the only way. I have been paying the property taxes, dues (over $400 a month!) not to mention the new paint and carpeting costs since the beginning of the year so I was just trying to save a few $$ by solving the wiring problem myself.

I have not talked to the electrician since he completed the job but all is done and working. He told my wife that if it were his condo, He would open up part of the ceiling in bedroom #2 as he felt the break was there but since it being sold and time is of the essence, he disabled the portion of the run that was causing the problem.

The condo had been on the market for over a year. The market here is not good for the seller as in most markets. The newspaper said yesterday that sales in the the area are down 30-40 percent and prices off 10-20 percent... in this case 25-30 percent.

I don't know how much the bill is yet as when my wife called him last night, he said that he would get back with her... sounded not in a hurry at all. He also does electrical work for our city and came highly recommended by other owners in this retirement neighborhood. I will post the charge for those curious. My wife really didn't care how much it was as she just wanted it fixed. Closing is in less than three weeks now.
 
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Old 09-11-08, 05:47 PM
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Ray .,,

To answer your question .,, Yes it will because if you can heard pretty good with megger you will hear a soft poping or arc sound { useally with megger it is very current limited but not voltage so watchout on that part otherwise it will come back and get ya if not carefull }

And both toner and megger do worth my extra cost when I try to do the trobleshooting tough spots.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 09-11-08, 05:53 PM
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Ahh It's sold at least..good deal. Jeez I hope its not like my buyers, they wanted license and permits for a simple roof repair..took me a week to convince the agent I knew WTH I was doing, finally got their inspector to stop by and say it was fine. Don't mean to make yer hair stand up, but it does happen.

Ouch, $400 for dues and taxes? I though WA was cheap to live...

Ok, now it's a pool...I'm in for a buck, assuming 3 hrs work plus mat'l...hmmmm ......$300?
 
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Old 09-11-08, 06:13 PM
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Thanks Marc for the answer. I've really only used meggers on stators and just never heard a sound. (Bet meggers don't have hand cranks any more. )
 
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Old 09-11-08, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Thanks Marc for the answer. I've really only used meggers on stators and just never heard a sound. (Bet meggers don't have hand cranks any more. )
Ray .,

Sure we still have hand cranked Meggers they can get ya .,,

But not only used on stators on the motors but other useage as well and I done alot of 480 volt wiring and it useally automatic for me to run the megger more than once it did save my neck due some of the wires were damaged and try to turn on the breaker some can really set a loud bang when they shorted out { that circuit I was working on is 480 v , 2400 amp circuit }

But the Meggers is start to show up in other area now like AFCI circuits that do really pay off when you do the tough troubleshooting.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 09-11-08, 06:38 PM
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When we used Meggers back in my Navy days, it was to just check for insulation breakdown on our antenna lines.
 
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Old 09-11-08, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
Ahh It's sold at least..good deal. Jeez I hope its not like my buyers, they wanted license and permits for a simple roof repair..took me a week to convince the agent I knew WTH I was doing, finally got their inspector to stop by and say it was fine. Don't mean to make yer hair stand up, but it does happen.

Ouch, $400 for dues and taxes? I though WA was cheap to live...

Ok, now it's a pool...I'm in for a buck, assuming 3 hrs work plus mat'l...hmmmm ......$300?
Actually the condo association dues are $427.75... per month. That doesn't include property taxes... that's averages out another $200+ per month. That is one reason it took so long to sell I bet.

Washington a cheap place to live? Not if you are in the Seattle area.

The three hours labor didn't include the last to the condo. I'll say closer to $500 but if I lose the winner will have get their winnings at escrow LOL.
 
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Old 09-11-08, 06:48 PM
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No not Seattle, not cheap there..I understand that, Step-son living there now...$1500+ for a tiny 2 bdrm apartment...jeez he's killin me! I was thinking further up in the woods...lol. Or over the mountains somewhere. But I did enjoy visiting down at the Fish Market...great food, couple of good deli's and fun to watch the guys throw 'em. Back when I was there, had a nice Cajun /Jazz place downtown somewhere too.

$427 just for dues..OMG..shoot me now!
 
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Old 09-12-08, 07:18 PM
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So we can judge ourselves by others - how long did it take him to figure out the problem? (You can subtract non-related conversation)

And what was the final bill? Especially the labor.
 
 

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