high pressure sodium.


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Old 11-12-08, 09:24 PM
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high pressure sodium.

A neighbour of mines 600 watt 240 volt HPS lamp accidentaly grounded out. A chain was dangling nearby and toughed the bulb near the base. Because the bulb is on a 240 cct, the base screw base was live. The dangling chain was bonded to ground at somepoint and he said that sparks were flying. There were sparks at a nearby plug aswell and the breaker didn't trip. My question is why didn't the breaker trip? Also, the plug was fed through EMT without a bonding conductor. Is it possible that the locknut of the connecter was loose and not giving a sufficient enough ground to trip the breaker? Is it possible that the ballast is wired up in a way that the cct isn't protected by the breaker? I'm totally stumped. Any thoughts would be great. Also, with HPS ballasts, will I have the high starting voltage on one of the lines when no bulb is in the socket? If this is the case it explains why my meter is fried now. thanks. Sid
 
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Old 11-13-08, 04:44 AM
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Sounds to me that you have a bad breaker or a wrong sized breaker. As for the voltage issue the job of the ballast is to increase the voltage. Some ballasts will print the out-put voltage on the ballast label or you can call the manufacturer to find out what it should be.
 
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Old 11-13-08, 09:32 AM
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Let's see..

A non-electronic ballast has "input" - isolation - then "output". The output is isolated form the input so to say.

This would be sort of like an electric motor which is connected to a generator. Then you short the wires coming out of the generator and sparks fly. But all this does to the electric motor is place a higher load on it and slow it down. And there is not a dead short on the wires feeding the electric motor.

So maybe this is the case?
 
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Old 11-13-08, 12:01 PM
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Because any HID lamp presents a "negative resistance", a ballast is necessary to limit the current through the lamp. A filament lamp has a fixed wattage, say 100 watts. A HID lamp does not. It is one of the ballasts function to limit the current through the lamp. This is why it did not blow the breaker when the chain hit the lamp base. The ballast held the wattage of the arcs (inside the lamp, and at the lamp base) to 600 watts.
(BTW- I have never heard of a 600 watt HPS lamp in the US. Must be a Canadian standard.)
Andy
 
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Old 11-13-08, 04:38 PM
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Thanks for the help, and yes, i'm in canada. Now Bill, if the chain were to continue to "short out" and weld itself to the base, what would protect the equipment then? would it fry the insulation off the wire on the load side of the ballast? Would the breaker ever trip then? I don't understand why a green bonding wire from the ballast would even be neccisary if this is the case. The bond to ground gives the breaker an opportunity to trip in case of a fault. no? I hope you can explain this to me because it doesn't make sense to me. Thanks for the time and the help. sid
 
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Old 11-13-08, 07:21 PM
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Let you know the 600 w HPS is common item here in larger luminarie useage.

I do run into the 600 watter from time to time.

Now senice the OP is from Canada there is a issue with the ballast and socket set up due the Canada Electrical Code is little stricter on this part than NEC { USA } is due the the way the ballast connected and the 208 and 240 volts ballast have some safety issue with connection unless it have CWA ballast then it should be ok.

The green wire is a bonding it must be used on the ballast for safety reason.

I will get ahold of one of my Canadain freind to confirmed about this matter.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 11-13-08, 07:57 PM
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Here a update .,

Just talked to one of my Canadian electrician about this and I am relaying the message here to the OP.,

Is the ballast is open core or enclosed ballast type ?

And if possiblty add a photo to here so can take a look to see if that is legit or not.


Merci, Marc
 
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Old 11-13-08, 08:08 PM
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Hey marc, thanks for the help. I believe that the ballast is open core as i can see the laminations cleary. It's super old too, if that's any help. I'll try to attacha photo as soon as I can. sid
 
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Old 11-13-08, 08:11 PM
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Ok I will look foward to see it and thank for letting us know and that will make the diffrence there and is the ballast is inside the luminaire right ?

And is the bulb is right next to the luminaire or remote mounted { I ran into few like that }

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 11-13-08, 08:11 PM
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http://forum.doityourself.com/1450015-post1.html

Please read about the law in British Columbia
why would you risk your so called apprenticeship and maybe burn down an Old Lady's house
your not qualified to do regulated work in British Columbia.

Please Read this

Electrical Safety Regulation
 
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Old 11-13-08, 09:29 PM
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Thanks electric guy. I appreciate your comment. Believe me when I say that i've been on the safety authority website more than any FSR electrician I know and I'm constantly on line trying to learn better, proper and more safe ways of carrying out electrical work. In my 3 years of schooling i've maintained a 95% average, not because I'm a wiz but because I care about what I do and I care about the people that I do work for. I'll get on the link you've mentioned and I'll give it a read, but believe me, I've had this conversation with many a journeyen before and I do realize that a lot of half assed apprentices take on side jobs, do crappy work and maybe even burn houses down, like you've mentioned. However, when I take on side jobs, making things safe is my # one concern. I promise to myself to at least make the home a safer place even if the nature of work is out of my scope of capability. Since when is extra and ensured bonding a bad thing? Yeah, I smoked my meter, but like you or any electrician out there hasn't had a screw up similar to that. Anyway, here's the deal. The "little old lady" has called many licenced contractors and has been playing the waiting game with all of them, most of them money hungry person that won't take on a job unless they'll make at least a thousand bucks. I know this because i've been apprenticing under such turkeyheads for 6 years. Right now there's so much work in the okanogan and BC in general, there's big money to be made. There's no money in changing out a plug or a light And you know it. So the little old lady waits. Now, in the time that she hopelessly waits for an electrician to show up and rip her off by suggesting a completely unneccisary panel change or upgrade, she's risking her life and those around hers by living in an unsafe place. Also, I'm a new father of a baby boy, a recent new homeowner and I could use extra cash. You've never taken on a side job? Come on!. Anyway, I found the problem and the lady had a whole bunch of lights and plugs with a bad ground. Great news for her, she's not going to burn up next time there's an incident. I learned a whole lot and now I'm that much more "qualified" next time that situation occurs. As for "risking my apprenticeship" doing side jobs, I'll continue doing them so long as people continue coming to me saying, "I think I have an unsafe situation at my home, can you help? noone else can." Why not? I hope that you would too!!! by the way, I didn't except any cash but I got myself a months worth of home made pickles. thanks for the comment and I'll go to that link right now. Sid
 

Last edited by french277V; 11-13-08 at 10:24 PM. Reason: clean up langunge to keep it G rated
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Old 11-13-08, 09:56 PM
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Deleted to add to another post
 

Last edited by Electricguy; 11-13-08 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 11-13-08, 10:05 PM
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Here is just a basic summary of my cost of doing business for one month.

Well heres one month from last spring .
auto insurance 159.89
auto operating 585.32
auto repairs tires or even auto payment 583.17

bank charges for account 71.00
business development 164.67
liability insurance 82.40
licenses and bonding 39.00
book keeping 200.00
INTERNET 49.00
office maintenance 68.68
office insurance 20.59
postage 41.42
printing and reproduction 25.00
office supplies 162.14
employee benefits 95.94
office rent 350.00
shop supplies 282.00
telephone and yellow pages cel phone and 650.00 includes an ad in other book
electric and gas 140.00
workers comp 145.00

that is almost 3600.00
and theres a few things i have missed like lost tools. theft , damage,tool wear and tear ladder replacement etc

book keeping is going up too 300 per month and i will probably need an accountant this year before the year end also.
I hope this helps a bit. my costs are low compared to others in the service industry.

I haven't added any thing for office equip software etc.
 
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Old 11-13-08, 10:05 PM
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Sorry electric guy. I didn't realize that you were referring to a previous post. As for that issue, a qualified electrician moved some breakers around and installed some tandem "minis" to make space. he stabbed the 2 pole 30 in but not all the way. She got arcing and sparking a few weeks later and I, an apprentice came and fixed it and she and her family area lot safer now. I'm familiar with the link and if I have to choose between government regulation and helping someone be more safe, I'll choose the latter. Thanks,.. I love this site. sid
 
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Old 11-13-08, 10:09 PM
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So you can relate! All I'm saying is that there's something to be said about the shortage of workers in this province. If you can help, help. I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean too, I just wanted to be heard. Sid
 
  #16  
Old 11-13-08, 10:11 PM
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I know it will be little off topic but I will let it slide for now and I do know electricguy very well.

Merci,Marc


{ To other moderaters let this part slide for now if have question please do PM me }

Merci,Marc
 
  #17  
Old 11-13-08, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sidneyh View Post
Thanks electric guy. I appreciate your comment. Believe me when I say that i've been on the safety authority website more than any FSR electrician I know and I'm constantly on line trying to learn better, proper and more safe ways of carrying out electrical work. In my 3 years of schooling i've maintained a 95% average, not because I'm a wiz but because I care about what I do and I care about the people that I do work for. I'll get on the link you've mentioned and I'll give it a read, but believe me, I've had this conversation with many a journeyen before and I do realize that a lot of half assed apprentices take on side jobs, do crappy work and maybe even burn houses down, like you've mentioned. However, when I take on side jobs, making things safe is my # one concern. I promise to myself to at least make the home a safer place even if the nature of work is out of my scope of capability. Since when is extra and ensured bonding a bad thing? Yeah, I smoked my meter, but like you or any electrician out there hasn't had a screw up similar to that. Anyway, here's the deal. The "little old lady" has called many licenced contractors and has been playing the waiting game with all of them, most of them money hungry turkeyheads that won't take on a job unless they'll make at least a thousand bucks. I know this because i've been apprenticing under such dickheads for 6 years. Right now there's so much work in the okanogan and BC in general, there's big money to be made. There's no money in changing out a plug or a light And you know it. So the little old lady waits. Now, in the time that she hopelessly waits for an electrician to show up and rip her off by suggesting a completely unneccisary panel change or upgrade, she's risking her life and those around hers by living in an unsafe place. Also, I'm a new father of a baby boy, a recent new homeowner and I could use extra cash. You've never taken on a side job? Come on!. Anyway, I found the problem and the lady had a whole bunch of lights and plugs with a bad ground. Great news for her, she's not going to burn up next time there's an incident. I learned a whole lot and now I'm that much more "qualified" next time that situation occurs. As for "risking my apprenticeship" doing side jobs, I'll continue doing them so long as people continue coming to me saying, "I think I have an unsafe situation at my home, can you help? noone else can." Why not? I hope that you would too!!! by the way, I didn't except any cash but I got myself a months worth of home made pickles. thanks for the comment and I'll go to that link right now. Sid
I am sort of busy atm so i wont be cutting and pasting from you post

This is very close to my list of overhead costs

Building Rent/Lease
Dispatcher
Property Taxes
Management Training
Office Training
Tangible Taxes
In-House Training
Building Insurance
Tech Training
Mfg. Training
Telephones
Training Equipment
Vehicle Maintenance
Travel
Utilities
Vehicles
Loans
Subscriptions
Inspections
Liability Insurance
Employee Insurance
Truck Racks
Toll Calls
Bonds
Pagers/Cell Phones
Ladders
Trips to Supply House
Safety Equipment
Radios
Licenses
Computer Maint.
Law Suits
Radio Maintenance
Printing
Software
Office Equipment
Vacation Pay
Copy Machine
Forms
Life Insurance
Holiday Pay
Uniforms
Accounting
Business Insurance
Workers Comp.
Trade Association
Wages
Salaries
Advertising
Tax Preparation
Stationary
Theft
Memberships
Fuel
Interest
Marketing
Pay Roll Taxes
Uncollected Money
Unbillable Hours
Commissions
Call Backs
Unemployment
30+ Day Receivables
Safety Training
Bonuses
Shortages
Equipment
Bad Checks
Inventory
Delivery
Christmas Party
Test Equipment
Dues
Replacement Parts
Parts Storage
Damages
Material Purchases
Tool Replacement
Truck Signs
Warehouse Space
Files
Company Tools
Bank Charges
Building Maintenance
Legal
Computers
Trash Removal
Incentives
Postage
Credit Card Sales
Drug Testing
Office Supplies
Uniform Maintenance
Retirement Plan
Retainers
Grounds Maintenance
 

Last edited by french277V; 11-13-08 at 10:26 PM. Reason: clean up the qoute
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Old 11-13-08, 10:31 PM
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I run a resi electrical service company and I would like you to see what is involved on the business end. I do not do new construction I am here to service people that need electrical repairs.I can usually respond within 2 hours of any calls i get from customers.
What is hurting us is the side work guys.
I advertise in the Yellow pages so People can find a qualified Electrician.

I dont turn away customers because there isnt a 1000 bucks in it for me.
I have my cost analysis figured out to the $ so it doesn't matter if I am there for an hour or 5 hours. I know what i need to bring in , no more no less. I am not sure who this lady called and who you have been working for but it sure sounds like you have a bad taste for a legit electrical contractor.

I hope I have opened you eyes a bit on this matter.
 
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Old 11-13-08, 10:58 PM
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I have a family to feed to Thats why I have chosen to do electrical contracting legally
 

Last edited by Electricguy; 11-14-08 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 11-14-08, 06:42 AM
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That's great electric guy. I'm not saying that guys like you aren't out there. I know there are and I've worked for companies (one) like yours. However, you know that these types of outfits are few and far between. And I AM doing things legally. I'm a registered apprentice even though I've taken on a handfull of small jobs, mostly for friends and family, and mostly for those in need when a certified guy can't and won't get in to help. Also, can't a homeowner now work on any electrical work under 150 volts to ground legally? Even things like switches and plugs, I believe, can be worked on without a permit. I'm not stealing your work elecguy. Your rightfully bitter, I know apprentices that take on service changes and upgrades, even entire new home construction. Not me though. You missed my point about helping those in need. I will give this matter a serious thought, but try and see where I'm coming from please. Thanks for all the info and numbers you posted, it's interesting to see. Sid
 
  #21  
Old 11-14-08, 10:57 AM
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Some credit should be given for knowing when you need help and asking for it. Forums like this offer far better help then "Uncle Lew" or the guy at the Big Box store who never even saw a piece of NM till he took the 40 minute training video.

If people see others chastised for asking for help will they be as eager to post or just make a best guess?

Been in home repair, been underbid by workers I knew would just do a crap job as fast as they could and move on, been bankrupt, am unemployed, feel your frustration but really don't think you should take it out on the posters. (Just my opinion.)
 
  #22  
Old 11-14-08, 05:58 PM
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This is a do it yourself forum. Not a do-it-through-a-licencend-bonded-and-insured-person forum. This is an awesome place to learn a great deal about all that's electrical. You've made a point electric guy and I respect it, but hopefully on my next post you can help me rather than try to scare me off. Thanks all. sid
 
  #23  
Old 11-15-08, 09:44 AM
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Sindey.,

I hope you can understand the situation and we have to stick to the forum rules here.

Now let get back to the topic here any chance you can get the photo of the luminaire ?

Keep in your mind if this is used for anything illegal we { Moderators } will close the thead fast without warning.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 11-15-08, 06:32 PM
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Thanks french. I still havn't taken a photo, and I assure you that this light isn't used for anything illegal. I found the problem though. There is no bond wire pulled through the pipe and a loose locknut was giving a poor bond. Also, at the ballsat itself, the gound connection wasn'tvery solid. Problem solved and their shop is definately a lot safer now. Thanks for the help and sorry for getting off topic. Also, thanks to Ray for seeing the big picture. Sid
 
 

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