Same light controled by different breakers...


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Old 01-08-09, 07:37 PM
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Same light controled by different breakers...

I recently had a breaker trip (1st in 40 years) so I decided to label each breaker and found that many of the same lights and same outlets are controlled by more then 1 breaker. I know this is not normal, but is it dangerous...how can it be and how can it be corrected? (each breaker in the panel has only one wire connected to it). Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
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Old 01-08-09, 07:45 PM
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what result showed that there was more than 1 breaker involved in these devices?

if true, what has probably happened is two circuits got tied together somewhere. I find this unlikely unless it is only two circuits with this problem. For it to not present itself earlier, both circuits in any of the situations would have to be on the same leg of the panel. Having that happen once, I can accept, More than that, that starts getting into odds against it.
 
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Old 01-09-09, 03:51 PM
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I shut off each breaker in turn and checked which devices each controlled and found that several of them are controlling the same devices.

For example, circuits 1, 2 & 21 are also controlled by 22 (and 22 seems to have about half the house on it). Also, most of the devices on circuits 7 are also controlled by circuit 11 and most of the devices on circuits 7 & 11 are also controlled by 22. Thanks for your continued help.
 
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Old 01-09-09, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by arodory
I shut off each breaker in turn and checked which devices each controlled and found that several of them are controlling the same devices.

For example, circuits 1, 2 & 21 are also controlled by 22 (and 22 seems to have about half the house on it). Also, most of the devices on circuits 7 are also controlled by circuit 11 and most of the devices on circuits 7 & 11 are also controlled by 22. Thanks for your continued help.
You mean then that if you turn off breakers 3 thru 20, and any breaker above 23 -all at the same time - that with half the house still on, that if you THEN turn off any of the breakers 1,2, 21 and 22, one at a time, nothing on that circuit goes away? You sure?

Per nap -tell us what you did to test, exactly. This is pretty interesting.
 
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Old 01-09-09, 05:03 PM
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Are you located in North America ?? We are not talking "ring circuits" here are we??
 
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Old 01-09-09, 06:04 PM
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This is what happened... 22 tripped on its own and shut ALL the basement and a large part of the house. After resetting it, everything came back on. Later, I wanted to mark the breakers and started flipping them 1 by 1. I found that when I shut 7 it controlled the basement as well (but not all of it). 11 also shut off part of the basement as well (some of the same devices that are also controlled by 22). When I shut off 1, 2, & 21 some devices that are controlled by 22 also shut off.

I will stay on line now....

To reply to BUZZ...I am in North America.
 
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Old 01-09-09, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzz
Are you located in North America ?? We are not talking "ring circuits" here are we??
As in a 3-ring circuit?

I am not familiar with that (term). Could you explain briefly for me and others?
 
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Old 01-09-09, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51`
As in a 3-ring circuit?

I am not familiar with that (term). Could you explain briefly for me and others?
Ring circuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My thoughts were maybe a screwed up ring circuit from a poster in great Britain, if proper should still be fed from one breaker but if screwed up might be feed from two breakers on same line.
 
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Old 01-09-09, 06:29 PM
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Arodory,

Intesting. This is like headache-city. I'd have to sketch up some stuff, that a basement or any typical circuit might have, and toy around with joining in either hots or neutrals, even reversing them, and see what happens. Off hand, I have no quick answers on this other than to say they are joined, obviously.
 
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Old 01-09-09, 06:45 PM
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Thanks! It looks like they used mostly 3 wire bx in the 100 amp upgraded panel which runs to the original panel containing mostly original 2 wire circuits (which seems to be a junction box at this point). Maybe they tied them together improperly.

Also, I was told that the circuits are not phased correctly in the newer panel (potentially dangerous situation which I will need to have corrected asap).

Don't know if either of these issues or a combination could cause this problem (but it has been like this for at least 40 years).
 
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Old 01-09-09, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by arodory
. I found that when I shut 7 it controlled the basement as well (but not all of it). 11 also shut off part of the basement as well (some of the same devices that are also controlled by 22). When I shut off 1, 2, & 21 some devices that are controlled by 22 also shut off.

.
Not sure what is happening but it sounds like there may be a neutral missing, or at least for part of the circuit and luckily the loads have been balanced enough to not fry equipment. That is the onnly reason, at the moment, I can think of how turning off two different breakers, individually, would actually turn off the same load.

Typically, when two circuits are powering the same load, turning off either one without the other simply results in the load not being turned of with either circuit but requires both circuits to be de-energized.
 
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Old 01-09-09, 11:21 PM
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Did any chance is your house still have some of the old T&K { tube and knob } wiring still there ?

The reason why due you mention the breaker never tripped for 40 years so it possiblty someone did the wiring that time got it sorta paralleled connections { I know I ran into from time to time }

This may be more than a simple repair to get it working right and I am not suprised you may run into a hidden junction box or splices that where the curpit will show up.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 01-10-09, 06:56 AM
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Thanks for all both for the last replys!

There is no visable tube & knob wiring. I am not very farmiliar with it enough to know how that could cause the problem though.

I want to also clarify that the duplicate circuits are not exact duplicates as there are some devices on one of them that are not controlled by the other one (but some are).

Any additional thoughts are appreciated!
 
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Old 01-10-09, 08:02 AM
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There is no visable tube & knob wiring. I am not very farmiliar with it enough to know how that could cause the problem though.
but was there ever any K&T? Marcs point, I believe, is that as the wiring was updated (if there was K&T)the K&T was not removed but actually left active and without intent, the circuits were paralleled.

I want to also clarify that the duplicate circuits are not exact duplicates as there are some devices on one of them that are not controlled by the other one (but some are).
now we are really throwing some confusing situations together.


Just for more info for Marc to figure this thing out what brand of panel do you have? From behind the screen here, I am having difficulty coming up with an answer. Maybe the brand of panel will through a bit of light; maybe not.

is it possible to run another test?

turn off ALL the breakers except the main. Turn each one on, one at a time so that only 1 breaker is on at a time. Check to see what, if anything is different. I would suggest you start with the circuits already known to have problems.

Do you have any 120/240 appliances (elec dryers, elec stove, elect range are generally all of them). Does any of your tests results come out different if these breakers are left off when testing?
 
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Old 01-10-09, 08:42 AM
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You said the old panel is used as a junction box. Is there anything strange there? With so many cross circuit connections, it would seem that the problem would be located where those circuits all come together. You should see one on one connections there, bk to bk, wh to wh, and all copper to chassis. Correct me if that is wrong. If you see any red wires or any multiple, three or more blacks ties together let us know.

Bud
 
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Old 01-10-09, 10:20 AM
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I missed the part about the junction box.

Yes, sounds like a really good place to start. The first thing I would do is trace all the breakers to this and label them. (to avoid tracing back and forth)

then, turn off the main breaker and make sure all connections are good at the breakers and in this junction box. I would actually take the joints apart and remake them all just as a "did that" thing.

Then see where that gets you.

If it does not cure the problem, then we need to start looking at each connection in the junction box and try to determine what it feeds.

If you get through the first part, come on back and we'll continue.
 
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Old 01-10-09, 10:22 AM
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Thanks.

I will try to answer all the questions:

I do not believe there was K&T wiring in the house.

There are no 220 appliances in the house. The newer panel is a Federal Pacific Electric (at least 40 years old). It looks like the phases are not balanced correctly at that panel. Also, they used 3 wire bx in that PFE panel to connect to the old panel (now a junction box). The most of the original wires in the old box going out to the house look they are 2 wire from what I can see. However, there are a couple of new reds tying into the old blacks (Bud's concern) at that junction box (I can not do anymore breaker tests now because I am not at the house and will be for a while). If the problem is cause by a parrell connection, is that a dangerous condition?
 
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Old 01-10-09, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by arodory
If the problem is cause by a parrell connection, is that a dangerous condition?
it depends how the neutral is hooked into the deal. If there are 2 A phases (as an example) tied together, the breakers will still protect the hot wires but if there is only 1 neut for a return path, that wire would see the current of those 2 circuits added together which means, if you have 2 20 amp circuits feeding a device and one neut, that neut could see 40 amps.

Other than that, there is the safety concern for personell if you believe a ciruit is de-energized and it is fed from multiple points.
 
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Old 01-10-09, 11:19 AM
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[Just lost my post. I get so mad at that I could spit! Not into wasting my time.]

Are only black wires hooked up to breaker terminals 1,2,7,21, and 22?, or are some of these red?

Is some of the basement or upstairs, including the light circuit, on a 3 way switch? Are any of the outlets on any of those 5 circuits controlled by recepticles served by red and black and white wires where top or bottom halfs of outlets are constant hot while the other half is switched?

And if not (lets say) do you have any unexplained switch at front door or hall where say they WERE supposed to be that way , but someone perhaps forgot to break the jumper after they installed a replacement outlet on that type of circuit?

What is really fascinating to me was when Arodory said that one of those listed breakers controlled the entire basement, and yet another breaker (I think #7) could control part of that circuit. THAT I would like to try to draw up.
 
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Old 01-10-09, 11:24 AM
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Didn't we just have a thread about Federal Pacific Panels and possible neutral problems. With a potential floating neutral between the new panel and the old panel (now a junction box) we could get some real weird circuit paths. It also sounds like they jumpered the new panel to the old with 3-wire, so we are short a few whites and who knows what side they are on.

Wish I was there.

Bud
 

Last edited by Bud9051; 01-10-09 at 11:41 AM. Reason: additional comment
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Old 01-10-09, 12:29 PM
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Hard for me to respond to some of the questions because I think I need this clarified first ...possible problem with the balancing of the phases. My inderstanding with this particular Federal Pacific Panel is that each alternate breaker is on one phase...the first red, the next black, then red...etc. The wires in the panel are hooked up to the breakers alternately (for the most part) red, black, red, black..etc. whick I believe would be correct if full breakers were used. The problem is that there are half breakers installed so as the red and black wires are alternating at these half breakers, we end up with one red and one black on each phase. Which I believe can overload the neutrals but I do not know if that is causing the other problem as well (at least in part).

Thanks for all of your continued advice!!!
 
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Old 01-10-09, 01:15 PM
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do you have access to a voltage meter? It would help.

Bud
 
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Old 01-10-09, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by arodory
Thanks for all of your continued advice!!!
You'll get more.

This is one of these mysterious exciting threads where, like Bud said, he wishes he was there. Me too. At least I don't charge $75-100 an hour. That could get kinda scary even for the electrician trying tho unravel this thing.
 
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Old 01-10-09, 02:12 PM
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Thanks. I wish you guys were here also!!! I think 75-100 is hard to find by me. I paid 160 to change the breaker. Anyway, I am hoping to get get a good idea of what has to be done. I do not have a tester and I will not be at the house for a while.
 
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Old 01-10-09, 07:33 PM
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Let us know when you are back at the house. I can give you some things to look at, but I'm anxious for some of the pros to continue with this.
Bud
 
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Old 01-11-09, 10:27 AM
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For Bud9051

Hi Bud- It is my families house and when I am there, I do not have computer access. I have pictures of the inside of the panel and the inside of the junction box (old panel). Since they jumped the new to the old with 3 wire, is that always a problem with being short of whites. Or maybe you can let me know what to look for.

I continually appreciate everyones help with this issue. THANK YOU!
 
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Old 01-11-09, 11:15 AM
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Hi, I'll answer as best I can until the pros step back in. By running three wire between the new and old panel, they left out a number of whites and it is a problem. It has to do with your concern about phasing. If a single 110 line is run, with no other loading anywhere, the current goes out the black and returns through the white. If there is an exact load on the other phase, the current goes out one black and returns on the other, and no current flows on the white. Of course, this is AC so the process keeps alternating. But each side of the panel must have a return capability equal to the rating of the circuit. Hopefully the load is somewhat balanced, but there is always a possibility everything will be on one side. What you have, has obviously been working, we don't how as yet, but once everything is sorted out, you should plan on having the correct wires run between panels.

You also stated you have a Federal Pacific Electric panel. I am hoping one of the electricians will identify it as a good or bad one, I'm not certain when the difficulties occurred. If you do a search on FPE you will start to understand the concern. Whether any of the panel issues are related to your current problems, again, I not equipped to say. Before I do any guessing, which is not good, let's wait for the more qualified posts.

If you can post pictures of both panels with covers off it would help. Also, trying to figure out if all of the issues pass through that old panel/junction box might give a clue.

I'll keep watching,
Bud
 
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Old 01-11-09, 12:09 PM
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you seem to be doing just fine bud.


as bud said, if they did not provide enough neutrals, they may have created some not healthy situations for you.

If they created MWBC (multiwire branch circuits.= 2 hots+1 neutral). If they did this with 2 circuits on the same phase, they created a possibly serious hazard. The current on the 2 hots becomes additive so you could end up with a lot of current on a too small wire.

before you head back, you need to buy a voltmeter, even if it is a cheapie.

When you find a MWBC, you need to measure the voltage (at the breaker) from one of the hots in that MWBC to the other. You should read 240 volts. If you don't, you have what I described above. FIX IT. Simple as running another white from the panel to the j-box and seperating the circuits involved to seperate neutrals.

DO NOT DISCONNECT EITHER THE HOT OR THE NEUTRAL while the breakers to those circuits are energized. A neut will kill just as fast as a hot if you open the circuit and install yourself into it.


So, if you find a MWBC that was originally installed that way, check the voltage for those circuits the same way I described above. If you do not have the 240 volts there and you cannot simply run another neut (if the MWBC leaves the j-box as a MWBC, there will be only 1 neut so you cannot fix as above), you will have to change one of the circuits to the other leg of the panel. I presume the panel is full so if when you swap circuits, be sure to NOT use one that is part of a MWBC since that will only move the problem to another circuit. You can swap it with any individual circuit that will give you the correct leg of the panel.

I have to cruise for a bit but I will be back with more of my novel. I'll try to think of anything I can to check so when you go there, you will have the info needed to fix this. Ask any questions you might have so we can clarify or provide info for anything you do not understand or have questions about.
 
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Old 01-11-09, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by arodory
I paid 160 to change the breaker.
JUST to change a breaker? You serious? Why did you have to hire someone to change a breaker yet you are trying to sort out this complicated nightmare?

I could make quite a decent living changing out furnace HSI's and breakers.
 
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Old 01-11-09, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51`
JUST to change a breaker? You serious? Why did you have to hire someone to change a breaker yet you are trying to sort out this complicated nightmare?

I could make quite a decent living changing out furnace HSI's and breakers.
Hire somebody? I'ld almost bet that was only the cost of the breaker. Old FP breakers are not cheap and if it was a rarity, that means $$$$$$.

I would seriously consider changing out the panel to Sqd (my fav) or some other modern and existant brand. With FP, if you have to replace a couple breakers, it can cost more than a DIY panel swap.
 
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Old 01-11-09, 03:06 PM
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Thanks for all of the replys!

I had seen all the FPE concerns on the web. Then, when the breaker and the main tripped and I realized so much was on the one breaker but never tripped before, I was concerned enough to call in an electrician. He had said the breaker looked good, but he changed it anyway (but I do not have a lot of faith in him) because after he left, I brought the pictures to someone else who felt the phases were not balanced properly because they balanced them as if full breakers were being, not halfs.

By the way, as you know, the breaker themselves can be very expensive. I would like for you guys to see the pictures (worth a 1000 words) but I do not believe we are permitted to post attachments on this site but I will would be very happy to e-mail them to you, if you want.
 
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Old 01-11-09, 03:52 PM
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posting pictures

Just post your pictures at photobucket.com and use the insert link option and you are all set.
Bud
 
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Old 01-11-09, 05:27 PM
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arodory - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Thanks Bud for the info...here they are (the new panel picture, of course, should be rotated so the neutrals are at the bottom)...that being said, referring to breakers on the left please use these numbers from top to bottom: #1 is also controlled by #14 (new breaker at the bottom); # 2 is also controlled by #6, 8, 14; all except one device on 6 is controlled by 14; many devices on 6 are also controlled by #8; many of 6 are also controlled by #14; all of 9 is also controlled by #8; all devices on 10 are is also controlled by #14; items on 13 are also controlled by #14; the items on the full breaker on top right (also when picture is inverted) are also controlled by #14.

In summary, 6, 8, 14 have many, many devices on them (each controlling entire floor and more) these breakers may overlap each other in addition to the other mentioned breakers as well.

5 & 7 may have NOTHING attached to them unless I missed something in my research.

Hope this is not a real headache but rather some simple switching (so to speak)...but it is what it is.

Thanks again!!!
 
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Old 01-11-09, 05:50 PM
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There is couple question I need to know real quick.,

Ya are in Canada or USA ? If in Cananda it may be ok with that set up but I will let the Canada electricians to confirmed with that part.

How old is that " new " breaker box is ?

Now the other issue is you have alot of MWBC there allright.,,

but with large junction box IMO the way someone whom did hook up got the line not correctally phased and netrual seems not counted right for MWBC / indivual circuits.

Ya have pretty good numbers of BX's there

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 01-11-09, 06:25 PM
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as to the circuits being "phased" or balanced (in your terms); hard to tell. On the bottom, if the first circuit is on a neut by itself, the next 6 pairs could share a neut between each pair and be connected correctly. Also, each circuit does not have to be directly next to the other hot of that MWBC, simply just on the opposite leg (phase or whatever you want to call it).

that is why you need to track each circuit to the j-box and determine which are paired together for a MWBC and checking voltages as I described previously.

where is the main breaker?

and what are those 2 (seemingly) black wires on the neutral bus?
 
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Old 01-11-09, 07:37 PM
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I am in the US and the "new panel is at least 40 years old.

The main is in the garage (just passed the meter). The panel in the basement. I think those are old whites that look dark because of the old insulation.
 
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Old 01-11-09, 08:13 PM
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Just to be absolutely clear: there are no screw type fuses in either electrical panel, only circuit breakers are present, correct?
 
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Old 01-11-09, 08:27 PM
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Yep that what the OP saying there is no fuse box there at all.


But somecase I know some older home may have hidden fusebox someplace I know one home I did work it have it in the attic.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 01-12-09, 10:27 AM
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My understanding is that the old fuse old is now that junction box (see picture). Fuses have been eliminated.
 
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Old 01-12-09, 04:11 PM
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No, there are no other boxes to be found (basement , attic...etc).


Any more thoughts?
 
 

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