does basement lighting circuit need GFCI?

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Old 03-09-09, 01:35 PM
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does basement lighting circuit need GFCI?

I have a circuit planned that goes to switch box in unfinished basement for a light there, then it goes to switch box in crawlspace for a light there. from there, there are 2 branches: one to a switch box in utility/furnace room for a light there, and the other goes to switch box in my dining room for lights there. So, I was planning on putting it on AFCI since it supplies the dining room. I didn't think that basement or crawlspace LIGHTS needed GFCI (only receptacles). There will NOT be any receptacles on this circuit-lights only. does this sound OK? Does it actually need AFCI for the dining room lights-once again, there are not any receptacles on this circuit.
 
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Old 03-09-09, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hammerash View Post
I didn't think that basement or crawlspace LIGHTS needed GFCI (only receptacles).
Correct -- only 120V receptacles need GFCI in the unfinished basement.

Does it actually need AFCI for the dining room lights-once again, there are not any receptacles on this circuit.
I don't think so, but wait for someone who's more familiar with the details of NEC08 to chime in. I believe the living space requirement only covers rooms like family room, den, bedroom, etc. I think dining room would be lumped in with kitchen which is exempt from the AFCI requirement.
 
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Old 03-10-09, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
Correct -- only 120V receptacles need GFCI in the unfinished basement.



I don't think so, but wait for someone who's more familiar with the details of NEC08 to chime in. I believe the living space requirement only covers rooms like family room, den, bedroom, etc. I think dining room would be lumped in with kitchen which is exempt from the AFCI requirement.
The living room needs to be on a AFCI curcuit per 2008 code. Remember it states any outlet. A light ,a receptable, a smoke detector.

Jim Beer 4U2
 

Last edited by pcboss; 03-24-09 at 10:25 AM. Reason: technical correction
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Old 03-10-09, 11:35 AM
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did you mean dining room instead of living room? My qestion was about dining room. So I'm ok with my current plan? putting on AFCI breaker is no problem and I had planned on doing that, although wasn't certain that it was required. The concern is really whether the stops to supply lights (no receptacles) in unfinished cellar, crawlspace, and furnace room would require GFCI protection. It they do, then I would have to split the circuit. And I guess IPBooks says they do NOT. thanks good to know the wording and use of "outlet" and what exactly it means. Different from receptacle.
 
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Old 03-10-09, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hammerash View Post
did you mean dining room instead of living room? My qestion was about dining room. So I'm ok with my current plan? putting on AFCI breaker is no problem and I had planned on doing that, although wasn't certain that it was required. The concern is really whether the stops to supply lights (no receptacles) in unfinished cellar, crawlspace, and furnace room would require GFCI protection. It they do, then I would have to split the circuit. And I guess IPBooks says they do NOT. thanks good to know the wording and use of "outlet" and what exactly it means. Different from receptacle.
ibpooks is correct. Here's a list of where AFCI should be at:
Bedroom
Living room
Dining room
Sun room
Hallway
Closet
Finished basement
Rec room

Hope this helps.
Jim Beer 4U2
 
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Old 03-10-09, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by hammerash View Post
dthanks good to know the wording and use of "outlet" and what exactly it means. Different from receptacle.
Yes, the jargon does help understand the complexities of the code. "Outlet" is anywhere power is used: receptacle, light, hardwired appliance, etc. Switches, disconnects and similar devices are not considered outlets.

You do not need GFCI for basement lighting.

Rukus says you do need AFCI for dining room lighting, and I would go along with that. Michigan is not on 2008 code yet, so the details of it are beyond my expertise.
 
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Old 03-10-09, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
Yes, the jargon does help understand the complexities of the code. "Outlet" is anywhere power is used: receptacle, light, hardwired appliance, etc. Switches, disconnects and similar devices are not considered outlets.

You do not need GFCI for basement lighting.

Rukus says you do need AFCI for dining room lighting, and I would go along with that. Michigan is not on 2008 code yet, so the details of it are beyond my expertise.
I should have asked that question of location. I live in Iowa and they are using the 2008 Code now. Hope things are going well in Michigan.

Jim
 
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Old 03-10-09, 06:35 PM
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All these are "outlets":



- From the discussion of the 2008 NEC AFCI requirements at: http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_branch_circuits_part_2/

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Old 03-23-09, 10:36 PM
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switch an outlet? outlets near tub?

I thought I had this down, but inspector commented that I couldn't have OUTLET within 5ft of tub. I was asking him question about my window candles and he noticed a switchbox near tub. He said his span is about 5' and a double gang box of switches looked close (I later measured and was more than 5') Rukkus11 said switch is outlet but IBPOOKS said switch is not outlet? the one switch was for a light above tub and other was for light in shower. both use cans that are damp location listed and I will use shower trim on them. as mentioned, the switches are more than 5' from tub. Do they also have to be more than 5' from shower? or is just from tub?

can my hardwired in wall heater be within 5' of tub? if not, I am screwed cause I don't have any other wall space to put it! it was going about 1' from tub (needs min 1' from vertical wall-so will be centered between the tub platform and the vanity with just over a foot on either side) and about 7" off floor (min is 6")
 
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Old 03-23-09, 11:49 PM
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Let me step in here for a min to get few matter straghten out as far for switches as long you are away from bathtub line you should have no issue with it.

The borderline start at edge of bathtub and go up 2.4 metre { 8 Feet } I am pretty sure one of the members here did save the photo what it should look like so if they do have it they can able post it clear.

The switch is not a outlet that only thing it will cross it out if the inspector did not catch it right.

I did see few place the switch is very close to the tub edge in some area we are not too crazy but it done that way and the code do allow that way.

Hardwired electric heater it should not have issue with it unless the manufacter mention about location or GFCI requirement { it should be mentioned in the installment instruction cutsheet }

I will let Michael Thomas chime in on this part due he is qualifed inspector I feel he can able fill in you with the details however as I will mention the code cycle and local code requirement will affect someway. { I think he may have a photo on that one If not oh well someone will get the photo in there ( I have French code photo with me so it will not work in here LOL )}

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 03-24-09, 07:05 AM
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Here is a graphic to help you. MikeHolt.com

A switch is not an outlet. Switches only need to be outside the footprint of the tub or shower.
 
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Old 03-24-09, 08:17 AM
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I agree that a switch is NOT an outlet. The word "outlet" is precisely defined in the code, and it is clear that the definition does not include a switch.
 
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Old 03-24-09, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by John Nelson View Post
I agree that a switch is NOT an outlet. The word "outlet" is precisely defined in the code, and it is clear that the definition does not include a switch.
I agree with you that a light switch isn't a outlet but the box you put it in is. I'm just thinking about when we use a AFCI lets say in a bedroom. All outlets must be AFCI protected. So we have a switch outlet, a fan outlet, a receptacle outlet, a light outlet and a smoke detector outlet. To me a outlet is a box that wires come into that will need a cover. Please help me understand what you're saying.
Thanks!
Jim
 
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Old 03-24-09, 09:18 AM
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For clarification the NEC defines an outlet this way; A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment'.

A switch does not use current, it only controls the flow.
 
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Old 03-24-09, 09:44 AM
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OK guys, with this talk about outlets, see my other post here

http://forum.doityourself.com/electr...ml#post1542969

particularly part about multigang box having two switches, each on different circuit-one circuit that probably will be AFCI (if AFCI is needed for pantry/kitchen LIGHTING ONLY circuit) and perhaps other circuit that is probably not required to AFCI (mudroom and garage LIGHTING only). if a switch is NOT an outlet, then this would be OK to have a AFCI and a non-AFCI in same box. BUT, if that box is considered an outlet, then I guess you couldn't do this. boy this gets tricky with this new AFCI requirement!
 
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Old 03-24-09, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by hammerash View Post
this would be OK to have a AFCI and a non-AFCI in same box.
Yes, that's allowed.

BUT, if that box is considered an outlet, then I guess you couldn't do this.
A box is not an outlet.
 
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Old 03-24-09, 10:06 AM
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The box does not make it an outlet.

What edition of the code is Howard County currently enforcing or was in effect when you took out your permit?
 
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Old 03-24-09, 10:18 AM
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just adopted 2008 a few months before permit was taken out. they have a few local addendums, but when I looked at them, none really applied to me except maybe grandfathering of smoke detectors. If you currently have hardwired detector on non-AFCI circuit, you can keep it that way and add the new ones to that circuit.
 
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Old 03-24-09, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by pcboss View Post
For clarification the NEC defines an outlet this way; A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment'.

A switch does not use current, it only controls the flow.
Ok I'm starting to understand. So in my bedroom I can put 3 light switches in it that they will control my 3 lights outside my house. I won't need to have them AFCI protected as long as the fixture isn't in that room because they aren't considered a outlet. Correct?
Jim
 
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Old 03-24-09, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rukkus11 View Post
Ok I'm starting to understand. So in my bedroom I can put 3 light switches in it that they will control my 3 lights outside my house. I won't need to have them AFCI protected as long as the fixture isn't in that room because they aren't considered a outlet. Correct?
Jim
This would be correct. No need for AFCI for the exterior lighting or their associated switches.
 
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Old 03-25-09, 08:34 AM
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(One detail: some AFCIs also provide 5ma GFCI protection, so a single beaker could provide both types of protection where GFCIs are required, for example an exterior outlet powered from an AFCI protected "interior" circuit.)
 
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Old 03-25-09, 10:31 AM
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One of the pros will answer I'm sure, but I don't think the 5mA is enough to count. What I mean is that if circuit is required to be GFCI protected, the 5mA of protection from a AFCI breaker is not enough protection and would be code violation. I think that is what has been said on here before.
 
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Old 03-25-09, 11:03 AM
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Class A GFI protection is 5mA and is designed to protect people.

There is also Class B which provides 30mA levels of protection, but not enough to protect people.
 
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Old 03-25-09, 11:38 AM
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I knew there were 5mA and 30mA of protection. I guess what I read before was that the AFCI usually have 30mA of protection and that wasn't enough. my Square D combo AFCI state that they do NOT meet requirements of Class A GFCI protection. would be nice if they did, but I guess they would then cost $200 apiece!!
 
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Old 03-25-09, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by hammerash View Post
I knew there were 5mA and 30mA of protection. I guess what I read before was that the AFCI usually have 30mA of protection and that wasn't enough. my Square D combo AFCI state that they do NOT meet requirements of Class A GFCI protection. would be nice if they did, but I guess they would then cost $200 apiece!!

Well, $110, anyway:



CH CH120AFGF - FIRE-GUARD AFCI With 5ma GFCI 1 Pole 20 Amp

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