Wiring 240v welder to 60 amp sub-panel service

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Old 04-10-09, 03:31 PM
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Wiring 240v welder to 60 amp sub-panel service

Wiring 240v welder to 60 amp sub-panel service.

I have 60 amps coming from the house to the garage. The house panel as 2 fuse of 30amps each. One fuse on one panel feed and the other on the other one.

In the garage I have a 2 pole breaker that is free. I connected a red wire on one pole and the black on the other. The white is on the neutral return.

Welder does not power up. Both wire have 120v on volt meter...

From what I was able to gather from this great forum of self-dowers such as me ;-) is that I might have to get power on one of my wires from an other free pole breaker because the double pole breaker I used is on the same frequency for both wires ?

Thanks for your support, would be nice to be able to weld my projects
 
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Old 04-10-09, 03:46 PM
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Well I am not an electrician, so wait until someone responds who knows what they are talking about.
Does the welder require a 60A service? If so it sounds like to me you are providing a 30A service for it. I'm pretty sure you dont add the two 30A conductors since they are on different phases. When you measure the black and red wire against each other at the same time in the garage do you get 240V? If your on different phases you should be able to measure accross them and come up with 240V and 120V to ground.
If your house only has a 30A service coming from it, which is probably #10 guage, you cannot install a larger breaker with out up-sizing the conductors too.
Good Luck
Dennis
 
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Old 04-10-09, 03:49 PM
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have 60 amps coming from the house to the garage. The house panel as 2 fuse of 30amps each. One fuse on one panel feed and the other on the other one.
You do not have 60a. You have 30a.
In the garage I have a 2 pole breaker that is free. I connected a red wire on one pole and the black on the other.
What is the voltage between the breakers?
The white is on the neutral return.
Typical welder does not use a neutral. You should have two hots and a ground. A white wire can not be used as a ground.

The panel in the garage should have four wires, an isolated neutral, and a bonded ground bar plus the hots. Tell us more about this panel? How many breakers in it. What size are the supply wires. You have not given specs on the welder but my guess is a 30 amp panel is border line just for the welder with nothing else. Please give us the welder specs too.
 
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Old 04-10-09, 06:03 PM
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Rigth... ok about the 30amps... I know the welder runs on 240v @ 28 amps ... it's a miller ac/cc xmt-300
The garage is also 100 feet away so I might not have even 30 amps at the sub-panel ?!
There is 4 two(2) pole 120/240v (Cutler-Hammer
dnpl1515) in the panel.
I will check the main garage wires gauge tomorrow and get back to you but by the sound of it looks like I will need a smaller welder
 
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Old 04-10-09, 06:59 PM
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There is 4 two(2) pole 120/240v (Cutler-Hammer
Really no such critter. Residential breakers are either two pole 240v or 120v single pole. I'm guessing maybe you have single pole tandems. They look like two pole but aren't really. They are two 120v breakers in the space of a full size breaker. If you mistook one of these for a two pole breaker it would explain why you had only 120v.

Instead of a new welder maybe you can run a larger line to the sub panel but the pros will have to address that. I'm not to familiar with fuse panels.
 
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Old 04-11-09, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Really no such critter. Residential breakers are either two pole 240v or 120v single pole. I'm guessing maybe you have single pole tandems. They look like two pole but aren't really. They are two 120v breakers in the space of a full size breaker. If you mistook one of these for a two pole breaker it would explain why you had only 120v.
Wow ok... what confused me was to 120/240 but you're right they're all tandem... Well at least I understand better what I have.

Will post my fix here but I was thinking of getting an actual 2-poles breaker for 240 application with 15 amps (an linking the 2 switches). When welding I will have all other breaker off so to not jump any house fuses. Makes sense
 
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Old 04-11-09, 08:22 AM
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Will post my fix here but I was thinking of getting an actual 2-poles breaker for 240 application with 15 amps (an linking the 2 switches). When welding I will have all other breaker off so to not jump any house fuses. Makes sense
A 15 amp breaker supplies 15 amps and that is all it supplies regardless of whether it is single pole or double pole. You can not run a 28 amp load on a 15 amp fuse. You may be able to use a 30 amp two pole breaker and be OK as long as the welder isn't used at max for long periods of time. Also the fuses at the main panel should be slow blow.

Please don't take this wrong but perhaps you need to read a book on wiring basics first. Wiring Simplified available at Home Depot is one often recommended here. So far much of what you thought you knew is wrong. You really need to learn the basics first.
 
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Old 04-11-09, 12:46 PM
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Thank you all for you support in refreshing my memory on this wiring situation of mine, your help was great.

I went with a 30 amps breaker "full size" 2 pole linked at the switches... Welder fired right up
The welder breaker is always off and when I need to weld I turn all the other other breakers off to be safe. I only weld small stuff so only using the machine at half it's capacity...

Just to cover the loose ends on this topic, I checked the main wire gauge going to the garage is #8.

Happy easter Beer 4U2
 
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Old 04-11-09, 01:11 PM
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Glad you got it. #8 is good for up to 40 amps. I don't know for sure if you can switch out to 40a fusees but the Pros can answerer that. If you can that would give you plenty of amps for your garage.
 
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Old 04-11-09, 03:41 PM
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Thanks Ray for the guide in here.,

Ok., now let get into the chase for a minute here senice the OP did mention #8 conductor however there is mult rating on them all it depending if the conductor is copper or Alum. and if in the conduit something like THHN/THWN or TECK cable or other.

For copper verison typically are rated 45 amp that baised on THHN/THWN conductor but the cable like NM or UF or TECK it will be at 40 amp.

For the Alum verison the bet is off it will be much lower than copper verison #8 AL is good for 30 - 35 amp range depending on rating of cable/conductor itself.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 04-11-09, 04:05 PM
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Thanks Marc. I usually just think copper so thanks for catching that. My real concern was if he could just swap out the 30a for 40a fuses assuming copper. Just don't know enough about fuse boxes to be sure. (How do you determine max size fuse you can use in a fuse holder other then the conductor? Are they marked or is it just a matter of if the fuse fits and conductor is large enough it's OK?)
 
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Old 04-11-09, 04:17 PM
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Ray .,

Pas de Probleme { No Problem at all }

ok for the fuse holder all it depending on if plug fuse or cartage fuse.

With plug fuse they useally limited to 30 amp max there is no plug fuse in North America that go much larger than that however yeah In Europe there is bigger one { it go up to 63 amp !!}

Now let get to cartage fuse catatory area there are multi size along the way first size will be 0-30 amp next size larger 35-60 amp then next class size 65-100 amp next size larger 101-200 amp etc { there is about 40+ size and it is too many for me to list it all just for NorthAmerica side the Europe side about 100+ sizes }

however you can have larger fuse holder and use the reducer to downsize the fuse as need to be but that part I am not too crazy with it due someone will abuse it by putting larger fuse than it should be done in first place.

Again for any fuses if you going have a motor on that circuit my very strongly recomoned is get the time delay fuse to prevent blowing out the fuse when the motor or transfomer kick in { start up } the cheaper fuse is one time use fuse and they useally don't handle the surge very well.

Oh yeah one more thing most fuse box will have max fuse size in there as voltage as well.

Merci,Marc
 
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