New construction main breaker panel ?


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Old 04-18-09, 04:38 PM
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New construction main breaker panel ?

I am building a house and doing the electrical my self. Everything has gone good so far but I have 1 question. I am installing the 200A main breaker panel in the basement, it is a flush installation and will have sheet rock on the wall. I am bring in my branch and lighting circuits from the top and would like to bring them in the 2 2" knock outs 1 on each side, the center knock out wil be for the main feed. The main feed will have a cable clamp because I cannot properly support the cable withing 12" of the box. For the 12-2 and 14-2 cables I would like to come directly in supporting them within 12" of the box. Here is my problem. What do I use for a bushing for the 2 2" knock outs ? Simple but I have not found anything in my local lumber yard. Thanks for any help...
 
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Old 04-18-09, 05:20 PM
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You do not use that method to properly secure the cables to the panel. You use cable clamps that are sized to the cables and utilize the 1/2" and 3"4 knockouts.

Pay attention to how many cables the connectors are rated for use with and the proper size range of the cables.
 
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Old 04-18-09, 05:43 PM
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not trying to be a smart ass but I suggest you do lots of reading before you get into this. Cables require the clamps as well as being attached as required per code (I'm ducking the specific number. I don;t do resi and I'm too lazy too look it up right now)


If your questions indicate your general understanding of the code and its application, you will have a lot of questions. You can answer many of them yourself by reading information books but for us to try and guess what you are doing and if you are doing it properly is tough. Read up on the subject so you can understand it better before you do something and have to redo it.
 
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Old 04-18-09, 11:16 PM
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I hate to be harsh in here as well.,,, Just stop right there and review the codes and metholds of running the cables and conductors.

The other reason why I tell you stop due you will use the 2 inch NM/SE clamp that is not a wise idea to do that it can do more damage than you think.

You can make a backing board behind the wall something like 1X4 so you can able nail the cables in correct manner.

A tip I will pass it to you when you close up with drywall make one section where you have the cables/ conductors running in make it removeable or other ways you can so when you add new circuit in future it will be make it easier to do it.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 04-19-09, 07:42 AM
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You are not being harsh as you do not know my knowledge level or experience. I have the code and have read it several times. I have also reviewed several other installations and have seen that they do not have every conductor using a cable clamp when coming into a breaker box. I just do not find an answer to my specific question. If you could point me to a code section I would appreciate it.
 
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Old 04-19-09, 09:08 AM
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ok, for a start

334.30

334.40(B)
 
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Old 04-19-09, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post
A tip I will pass it to you when you close up with drywall make one section where you have the cables/ conductors running in make it removeable or other ways you can so when you add new circuit in future it will be make it easier to do it.

Merci,Marc
Or run a piece of conduit to a more accessible location if that is possiable and just terminate it in a 4x4. You could use FMC or even the blue smurf for this. Makes it very easy to access your panel later, a 3/4" piece of FMC will let you add up to 8 more 20A circuits.

Jamie
 
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Old 04-19-09, 12:28 PM
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Thanks, I will review these again. I believe what I have seen is the electrician using a 2"x3" Rigid coupling with bushings on both ends to make the cable entry into the Breaker Box. After looking at my install again this morning I think I will change the mounting and go with a flush mounted Breaker Box on a plywood backing. I can then use the individual 1/2" knock outs on each side of the box and the appropriate cable connector.

This is more in line with what I have seen in most books.

Any comments ?
 
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Old 04-19-09, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilt_dude View Post
I have also reviewed several other installations and have seen that they do not have every conductor using a cable clamp when coming into a breaker box.

Honestly the more I look, I think there is more bad work out there than good. If you look at other peoples work you can find someone that did just about anything, even professionals. I've been looking at the service drops in my area lately, you want to know how many free hanging meters, or very low mast heads, or setups that have unfused cable running everywhere? Lots.

I'd say not to use other work you have seen as a guideline unless your really sure it was done correctly.

One other helpful tip, just read the directions on packages to find out what they can be used for, cable clamps will tell you how many cables they support and what kind. There are no cable clamps for 1"+ KO's for 12/14awg romex.

If you want to make sure you have done things correctly, post photos here, there are lots of sharp folks here that will help ensure what your doing is correct.

Jamie
 
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Old 04-19-09, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilt_dude View Post
Thanks, I will review these again. I believe what I have seen is the electrician using a 2"x3" Rigid coupling with bushings on both ends to make the cable entry into the Breaker Box. After looking at my install again this morning I think I will change the mounting and go with a flush mounted Breaker Box on a plywood backing. I can then use the individual 1/2" knock outs on each side of the box and the appropriate cable connector.

This is more in line with what I have seen in most books.

Any comments ?
Yes, use any of the available KO's or drill your own, most clamps are rated for a max of 2 cables.

Jamie
 
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Old 04-19-09, 04:03 PM
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Most half inch NM connectors are rated for 2 cable most case unless the local codes say something else for 3/4 inch size verison that useally limited to 2 also few case { very rare } 3 NM's.

Again check the package to make sure what they are listed for.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 04-20-09, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilt_dude View Post
I believe what I have seen is the electrician using a 2"x3" Rigid coupling with bushings on both ends to make the cable entry into the Breaker Box.
I have seen this too in the field, so it must have been (quasi) acceptable in the past; however that method is not legal anymore. It is required to have one or two cables per 1/2" clamp depending on the clamp rating from the packaging.
 
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Old 04-20-09, 08:47 AM
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I suggest you talk with the AHJ and see how he/she wants it done.
 
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Old 04-20-09, 11:46 AM
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"Branch and liting circuit ( cables ) " -- They are ALL Branch-Circuit cables with the exception of cables that suppy other panels; these cables are "Feeder" cables.

What is the reason for not using the KO's on the Top / Bottom of the panel ?
 
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Old 04-20-09, 06:21 PM
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I was looking to keep it clean and have the panel mounted flush with the drywall. At 40+ circuits I could not use the top and bottom knock outs. I think my revised approach for mounting the panel on a backboard and using the side knock outs will work fine. It should look very clean as well. I will post some pictures when I am done.
 
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Old 04-20-09, 06:48 PM
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There are probably less KO's on the sides than at the top and bottom of the panel. You certainly could use the top and bottom KO's and be flush with the drywall.
 
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Old 04-21-09, 10:16 AM
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Correct me if i'm wrong , but you reference to using the 2" KO's on the Left-Top, Right-Top sides of the panels gives me the impression that you wanted the cables to enter the panel thru these KO's.

If you are planning on connecting 40 circuits, it's all the more baffling why you are not using the Top/Bottom KO's.The conductor wiring is more compact and neat when the spread of the cables is across the width of the panel , not across the lenth.
 
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Old 05-10-09, 04:34 PM
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Passed Electrical Rough_in inspection

here is my breaker panel. I passed the rough-in inspection and ready to move forward with the rest of the project


For more information on my project check out

KC0QIR Home Page Beer 4U2
 
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Old 05-10-09, 04:40 PM
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Ok..no electrical guy, but just wondering....whats with all the Jericurl things in the panel?
 
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Old 05-10-09, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
Ok..no electrical guy, but just wondering....whats with all the Jericurl things in the panel?
No breakers yet so the hots have been coiled.
 
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Old 05-10-09, 06:18 PM
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Sorry to be harsh in here IMO that rough in it will NOT pass in my area I don't know how the inspector miss that by kilometer!

The 4/0's {120mm˛} that type of conductor it must be in conduit.

Second thing you will need electrical conductor comb to straghten them out when you install the breakers.
Myself I will never coil up like that.


Merci,Marc

P.S. I look up at your link about the project I did caught on few electrical code related issue allready that need to be taken care of it.
 
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Old 05-10-09, 06:31 PM
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I agree with Marc, I don't know how the feeder into the panel was approved the way it is. Individual conductors need to be in a complete conduit system.

I also would have used the KOs on the top of the panel instead of the sides. You will see why when you try to install a AFCI breaker that takes up half the the gutter space already and then you try to make a connection for the neutral to it. It would have also been better to pair the neutrals with the hot on the circuits that require AFCI protection.
 
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Old 05-10-09, 07:00 PM
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I also agree with Marc and PC. Again, not to be harsh but...

Your conductors from your disconnect outside to your inside panel needs to be in conduit.

You have no grounding conductor between your main outside and your inside panel. Your panel is not grounded! I'm sure you know this but do not install the green screw on your inside panel.

I also see, what I think is the grounding electrode conductor going out to your ground rod in your inside panel. This is also not correct. It should be installed at your main outside.

I don't see how the inspector passed your rough in with the cables going to the holes next to the studs of your boxes. Cables need to be 1 1/4" away from the face of the stud. Its fine for a 2"x6" wall but not 2"x4". Since he passed it I would be extra careful when installing the sheetrock.
 
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Old 05-10-09, 07:12 PM
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As PCboss and Tolyn Ironhand and myself expaining there are few major issue that NEED to be taken care now before you get final inspecton.

I am sorry be harsh but you did not give all the details from the starting point { outside main breaker } and to final details.

The outdoor main breaker location is fine however you will need the grounding conductor { useally bare or green copper conductor } from outdoor main breaker to indoor load center however that grounding conductor must land at ground buss bar only { that DO NOT land at netrual at all }

Second thing the service entrance conductor it must be in conduit.

Third thing I will not use the stackers on that wall you may run into issue with it.

and yeah state of Colorado do use AFCI requirement so you will have to sort out the netrual conductors as well.

For me I will never land netural if they do required GFCI or AFCI breaker to save time like that way.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 05-10-09, 07:19 PM
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Is this the service entrance panel or is there a breaker or disconnect ahead of this panel shown?
 
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Old 05-10-09, 07:31 PM
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PCboss ., I have a feeling it is a disconnect switch but I will let the OP answer that question.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 05-10-09, 07:46 PM
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I am thinking the same thing Marc. I see the neutral is insulated.
 
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Old 05-11-09, 06:19 AM
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You are correct it is a disconnect only and not a main breaker. This is the main breaker and thus it is grounded and the panel is bonded to neutral. The out side disconnect is required because of distance. It is about 30' from the disconnect to the panel. If it was on the other side of the wall it would not be required and this would be the disconnect and main breaker. The out side disconnect is not grounded. This panel is connected to the UFER (sp) ground for the house.
 
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Old 05-11-09, 06:30 AM
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All of the grounding and bonding should have taken place in the disconnect. The panel shown in the picture should have been fed with a 4 wire feed and should not have the neutral bond screw installed.

If allowed in your area you could have used SER cable between the disconnect and the inside panel.

One good thing tho, at least you already have the grounds on auxillary ground bars.
 
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Old 05-11-09, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilt_dude View Post
You are correct it is a disconnect only and not a main breaker.
If the outside panel is only a disconnect then why do I see an overcurrent device? See 230.92 (2005) Due to the breaker, the outside disconnect would be considered your main disconnect.
 
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Old 05-11-09, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pcboss View Post
I am thinking the same thing Marc. I see the neutral is insulated.
how do you get that? There is the green bonding screw in place to the right of the phase conductor connection as well as having a bare ground connected to a terminal next to the neutral conductor connection.

this panel has the EGC, GEC, and neut bonded.

kilt dude:

You are correct it is a disconnect only and not a main breaker. This is the main breaker and thus it is grounded and the panel is bonded to neutral. The out side disconnect is required because of distance. It is about 30' from the disconnect to the panel. If it was on the other side of the wall it would not be required and this would be the disconnect and main breaker. The out side disconnect is not grounded. This panel is connected to the UFER (sp) ground for the house.
the bonding has to be at the first disco and yes, as another posted, you must use 4 conductors IN CONDUIT from there to this panel.
 
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Old 05-11-09, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
how do you get that? There is the green bonding screw in place to the right of the phase conductor connection as well as having a bare ground connected to a terminal next to the neutral conductor connection.

this panel has the EGC, GEC, and neut bonded.
On Siemens (ITE) panels the bonding screw is many times set in place, but not screwed all the way in, isolating the neutral bar. From the pictures I thought it was hard to see if the screw is in all the way or not. Just a little FYI.
 
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Old 05-11-09, 06:52 PM
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For a brand new house that panel is disgusting. You should have used SER to feed it and it makes me question how it passed inspection.
 
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Old 05-11-09, 07:08 PM
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Nap this will answer your question

 
 

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