Wall switches not controlling anything


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Old 06-18-09, 05:46 PM
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Wall switches not controlling anything

Ok I need some help on how to approach my wiring nightmare I have going on. I bought a foreclosed home and it is great except for some odds and ends here and there. I must have 5 or wall plates with switches that dont go to anything. I have used a multimeter to them and they are hot when flipped to the on position. I have check all my outlets in the surrounding areas and they are all hot without using the switches. I am not sure what is going on here but I do need to add some more lighting in certain areas and if I can somehow locate where these wires are running it may help. I have been in both attics with no luck.

An Example: Soon as you walk in the Master Bedroom there is a light switch to the left and dual switch on the wall to the right near the closet. The switch to the left I figured would control the fan or lights and nothing. I tried to trace this switch in the attic above the master and I swear it is going to the ceiling fan fixture but cant quite get in deep enough due to the deisign of the roof. From what I can tell the fan + lights are always "hot" although the fan part has never worked since moving in as it is fully wireless, only the lights have worked. So I am left with a switch that goes "hot" when turned on but doesn't go to anything.

Where are these switches going? Please someone point me in a direction so i can tackle these dummy switches!!!!
 
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Old 06-18-09, 05:54 PM
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They may very well be bypassed. Have you pulled the switch covers off and pulled the switches out yet. If the PO wanted continuous power to the unit, they could have tied the two black wires together and put the switch back in for decoration. I know, dumb, but it makes the world go round. Have you used a tick tracer to make sure the switches have power?
 
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Old 06-18-09, 06:28 PM
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If some of the switches fed half of a receptacle, and the receptacle was replaced without breaking the jumper, both halves of the receptacle would be hot all the time.
 
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Old 06-18-09, 06:32 PM
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I have pulled the covers and pulled the switches out to test them for power. All the switches have power going to them and in the off position do not produce and power back out. When I flip the switch on and test with my MM, it is powered. I guess they could be bypassed somewhere within the wall but the way other stuff was done around the house I doubt the previous owner would go that far to do that. Not sure what a tick tracer is, could you elaborate a little on it. I tried reading up a little about it but I am not finding much info.

Where would the two black wires be tied together at al well? I see all the whites tied together behind the switch in the bedroom but the rest seem to be wired normal. Would they connect them in the attic somewhere or would it be at the switch?

Thanks
 
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Old 06-18-09, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by goldstar
If some of the switches fed half of a receptacle, and the receptacle was replaced without breaking the jumper, both halves of the receptacle would be hot all the time.
Now that makes sense, I didn't even think about that. I will look into that a little more. I am trying to get everything situated for when I get the handyman here so it will be point and go and not waste as much time as possible.

Any ideas how the master bedroom fan might be wired? I would think a switch would be ran to control the ceiling fan/lights.

To think of it none of the bedroom single throw wall switches control anything. None of the fans or lights are powered by it. I guess its time to check all the receptacles and see whats going on.
 

Last edited by fox_forma; 06-18-09 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 06-18-09, 07:07 PM
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It is also possible that there is more than one switch leg in the ceiling box. One for the fan one for the light kit. They could have just disconnected the one when they put in the remote. Same could be said for a switched receptacle.
 
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Old 06-18-09, 07:29 PM
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Ok I pulled the one bedroom wall switch plate off and pulled the switch out. What i have is a line coming in from the bottom of the box with white, black, copper. Now there are two runs of wire going out the top of the box. One is white, black and copper, second is Red, white and copper. The grounds are all tied together at well as the two blacks, with a single wire tied into them running to the switch. All the whites are tied in with eachother and the Red wire is going to the swtich as well. At least this tells me I am in the middle of a circuit but I am just not sure about the red,white, copper run. Is that some sort of branch off the switch?
 
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Old 06-18-09, 10:40 PM
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Do you see the red wire going from the switch to the ceiling fan if so that is the switched light circuit.

Many ceiling fans I deal with it some electrician and some serious DIY will run XX-3 NM instead of XX-2 NM due the thrid conductor is used for light or fan motor one of the two so that expain why you have two conductors there.

Look at the ceiling fan box I betcha that you will see it there.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 06-19-09, 09:27 AM
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Not sure where the red wire is going at this moment, I would need to get up in the attic and try to trace it. Either way the ceiling fan/light is always HOT so the switch has no control over it. This is what is confusing me. I have two runs going out of the junction box but have no idea where they are going to.
 
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Old 06-19-09, 11:51 AM
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The switches for the ceiling fan may have been used prior to a ceiling fan remote being installed. Instead of the attic to trace the wires you may be able to drop the fan canopy and see the connections.
 
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Old 06-21-09, 12:33 PM
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Ok I have dropped the fan cover down so I can see what is going on at the ceiling mount. There is in fact a red wire tied into the fans wiring. The green wire and copper wire are tied into eachother, the whites are tied to each other and the red in tied into the blacks. I will not be going with a remote fan this time around so how should it be wired so I can use the wall switch? Before the switch did nothing.

Also, should at least one receptacle in the room be tied into the switch as well? I would much rather put a fan up without the light fixture on it at be able to put two nice lamps beside the bed and use the switch to turn them on when I come into the room. Maybe put a dual switch in the wall, one for the fan, one for the lights?
 
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Old 06-21-09, 07:27 PM
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Well I think I got most of it taken care of but still running into a small issue. I put in a new fan and re-wired everything at the switch. I put a dual switch and this is where I am a little lost. I believe the Romex used is 14/3 and 14/2 leaving the switch'es junction box and I used a dual switch so i could clean up the wiring and control each run with the a flip of either switch. The run that had a 14/3 went to the ceiling fan, I wired everything up to the fan and left out the red wire completely. I wired up the other run that had 14/2 being used. The 14/2 run controls an outlet on the one side of the bedroom and the 14/3 is the fan. If i flip the top switch in will turn off the fan and light, if I flip the bottom switch it turns off the outlet but also turn off the fan.

The switch is wired with the hot coming in and break off tab in tact, each black wire from the two runs are connected to the side posts, 1 for each pole, with the whites twisted together and the grounds twisted together. What is causing the second switch to control both runs but the top only controls the fan? Does it have to do with the break off tab at the outlet?
 
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Old 06-21-09, 09:56 PM
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Let me get this question right.

How many red and black conductors in the ceiling fan box I know you say one red there but how many black conductors is there ? and ditto with white.

Now at the switch box location now tell me how many red conductors at the switch box ?

Ditto with black and white

once I get this sorted out then I may able tell you the correct way to get this hook up.

Merci, Marc
 
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Old 06-22-09, 05:23 AM
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there is 1 red, 1 black, 1 white and a copper at the ceiling fan box. This is a single run from the switch to the fan. At the switch, there is (1 black, 1 white, and a copper coming in). Going out of the switch box there is ( 1 red, 2 black, 2 white and 2 copper) Currently i am not using the red, it is capped off and only the black and whites are being used. Does that help you? Thanks
 
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Old 06-23-09, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by fox_forma
there is 1 red, 1 black, 1 white and a copper at the ceiling fan box. This is a single run from the switch to the fan. At the switch, there is (1 black, 1 white, and a copper coming in). Going out of the switch box there is ( 1 red, 2 black, 2 white and 2 copper) Currently i am not using the red, it is capped off and only the black and whites are being used. Does that help you? Thanks
Ok that help me alot there .,

now you mention dual switch as you refering to the fan / light combo switch ?

Something like simuair to this { not the excat but you will get the idea }



Now the two black and two whites at your switch box one of them is incomming power source and outgoing source.

as you say the single cable XX-3 NM going to the fan if so that is correct.

As next outgoing cables one is XX-3 { red , black , white } and also XX-2 { black and white } is that correct?

If that the case one red is used for ceiling fan { some will use that set up and some don't }
the other red is used for switched half receptales { it can be half or one or two duplexes receptales } if that is correct let us know we will work on it more.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 06-23-09, 05:50 PM
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sorry it was two xx-2 and one xx-3. The xx-3 was running to fan while the other two runs of xx-2 were incoming hot and outgoing. I ended up just going to a single pole switch, connected the incoming xx-2 and the outgoing xx-2 together and wired them to the one pole on the switch, and used the outgoing line for the fan on the other pole. All outlets are hot now with none switched and the fan/light work with the light switch. Good to go!
 
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Old 06-23-09, 11:11 PM
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That is good to let us know and in the future you can use the red conductor if in the case you change the arrangement on the ceiling fan.

This is my SOP when I do the wiring in the resdentail area and it is common to use either 2.5mm² or 4.0mm² { 14 or 12 gauge } with three conductor cable unless it is in conduit { pipe } then it will be diffrent it can be added anytime.

The cost to do it when fish in or rough in the cost is very little when do it right and don't have to worry about it later.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 06-26-09, 08:15 AM
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I figured I could leave out the red wire for now and if I want to change the fan/light operation I can do that at a later time using the red wire.

Now its time to try and track down the other 4 light switches that don't control anything!
 
 

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