barn wiring

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Old 08-27-09, 03:50 PM
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Question barn wiring

Hello all,
I am wiring up my new barn 40'x80'. I have a 3 phase panel for my well that I would like to tap to supply the power. I am roughly 400 ft from the panel. Ideally I would like to supply 3 phase to the barn, but really all I need is 2 phase. I will be putting in a 100 amp panel in the barn. What type of wire should I use? One inspector said that I am ok using 3 #4 copper and one #8 for ground. Another inspector said that I could get by with 2 #4 copper and one #8 common, and ground a rod 8' in at the panel. I would like to put this in as cheap as possible, and I am considering using aluminum instead of copper to save money. Would single wire in pvc conduit be the cheapest, or Would quadraplex direct burial be cheaper? Any ideas on the brand or part numbers?
Kind regards,
Dave
 
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Old 08-27-09, 04:00 PM
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Based on a load of 80 amps, at 400 ft I'm thinking 4/0 AL mobile home feeder cable direct burial. That's my vote
 
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Old 08-27-09, 04:20 PM
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Ideally I would like to supply 3 phase to the barn, but really all I need is 2 phase.
You list your location as U.S. bur 2 phase hasn't been used in the U;S; for many decades and was never very common. Can you explain a bit more what you are trying to say.
 
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Old 08-27-09, 04:28 PM
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I'm sure he meant single phase just 2 of the three.
 
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Old 08-27-09, 04:35 PM
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wirenut1110 is correct. I will be connecting to the 3 wire 3 phase power supply. But I minght only use 2 of the three hots to get 2 - 110 legs (or 220) at the barn.
 
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Old 08-27-09, 04:37 PM
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It's normally 208 volts, just an FYI for the DIY....Beer 4U2 Still 120 phase to neutral and/or ground but 208 across.
 
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Old 08-27-09, 04:58 PM
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Yes wirenut1110 is correct, I believe it is considered 208 / 3 phase. Ok, now that we have that established, I am pretty sure that I will only run 2 legs and not the full 208 to the barn. Ok, I have one vote for "4/0 AL mobile home feeder cable direct burial" anyone else? 4/0 seems awfully big?
 
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Old 08-27-09, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dwole View Post
Yes wirenut1110 is correct, I believe it is considered 208 / 3 phase. Ok, now that we have that established, I am pretty sure that I will only run 2 legs and not the full 208 to the barn. Ok, I have one vote for "4/0 AL mobile home feeder cable direct burial" anyone else? 4/0 seems awfully big?
For 400 feet away from the main load centre therefore no that is correct size what Wirenut mention due the voltage drop if you stay with #2 alum conductors that will really restrict the load so if you going want use much as you can due you have some power tools or stuff you need better off get little bigger now instead redo it again down the road.

Now for three phase supply for resdentail useally either 208Y120 or 240D120 volts the 208 is wye connectioned that useally not a issue at all but if you have 240 volt delta system now that get tricky to deal with it due one leg between phase B and netrual is 208 volts what we called wild leg or red leg or other names { I am not going to list all of it and keep it G rated in here }

How big your three phase supply it is now ? maybe you can run in conduit and bring full boat { full three phase } in and is your well pressure swich / contoller at the panel or other locations ?

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 08-27-09, 05:41 PM
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do you have a true 3-phase set-up?
i was at a place and the guy told me he had 3-phase there.
i looked and there was 3 hots (supply wires) in a 3-phase entrance.
but was not 3-phase power. one of the hots was set up for flouresent lights (i forget what you call this type)
when you put in a 3 pole breaker you have power to all poles
but not 3-phase. (maybe french 277v can explain again as i forgot)
if you have a wire that is coded orange...if everything is up to code
then you have 240 highleg. true 240 3-phase power.
it has to be (by code)labeled this in the main (entrance)box and by code it is to be the center leg. i learned this when i put 3-phase in my garage in clearwater.


the electrician didn`t have the center leg right (highleg, 240)
so he had to swap them and put orange tape on it. i had to get orange tape for all my 3-phase conections.

i would run the 3 out there as later on you could need or want it. then have to re-do it all again.
 
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Old 08-27-09, 06:29 PM
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I am not sure the poster has 3 phase. Barn usually implies rural and the likelihood of 3 phase drops. I am thinking what he is calling 3 phase is really 3-wire single phase 120/240. The OP writes:
I will be connecting to the 3 wire 3 phase power supply.
Normally a 3 phase drop is four wire. I think the advice may be more on mark if we can make sure we are talking about three phase.

Been to many years and never knew much about 3 phase but it seems to me in rural areas they sometimes use only two single phase transformers to get three phase. Open delta? Maybe that explains only three wires and I am totally wrong.
 
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Old 08-27-09, 06:43 PM
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ray2047 has good point about the 3phase out in the sticks.

i live between nowhere and somewhere, but i do see 3phase up on the poles that run long distance from town to town here.
obviously not all roads but a few more then i would have thought.

when they put mine into my old house (in the city) they ran it 500 yards down my street (to the house from the corner), put up another transformer at a pole, and a pole in the yard back to my entrance.

for the price of .......nothing.
 
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Old 08-28-09, 01:50 PM
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Thanks for the reply's guys! I know that there are only 3 wires on the poles running down the street. They feed into 3 transformers in my neighbors yard. From there I have 4 wires running to my yard, 3 of which go to my well and 3 go to my house (2 wires are shared and go both to the well and house). The house is dual - 200 amp main. I'll have to check the well, but it has all three lines running through slow burn fuses and then a breaker (not sure of the size) then all lines go down to the well. I believe that there is a ground out there somewhere as well, I'll check again when I get home. Maybe I can take some pictures to help out.
 
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Old 08-28-09, 04:35 PM
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Three transformers with four secondary wires would generally indicate a 3 phase wye-connected 208/120 service. With only three wires going to the well pumphouse it would indicate that you have only 208 volt 3 phase power available at that location. The three wires going to the house would indicate a single phase 208/120 volt service at the house.

This would be a normal configuration using three transformers with four secondary connections, this does not absolutely mean that this is what you have.

If my first paragraph is true then all you could have at the barn if you ran power from the well would be 208 volts 3 phase power. For any 120 volt single phase power you would need to use a transformer. The alternative would be to run 4 wires from the point where the service to the home and also to the well are connected to the 4 wires coming from the transformer. Are there any fused switches or circuit breakers at this point?
 
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Old 08-28-09, 05:51 PM
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The quickest way to verify it by reading the meter faceplate it will tell you what conferation it is on if the meter say 120 volts useally a wye connection system but if say straght 240 volts then it good chance you have delta system in there.

But if any other voltage stop right there and let us know ASAP due some case you may end up get 480 volts system { I know it not very often but it do happend }

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 08-28-09, 06:54 PM
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Ok guys,
I am at home and I took a bunch of pictures to help clarify whats going on. I am not real good at posting stuff (this is my 2nd time) so bear with me. After taking the pics it appears that even though I have 3 phase power at my well, one leg is clearly disconnected (both at the breaker and at the pump electrical box) so I am guessing that someone replace the 3 phase pump with a 220 pump??
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Kind regards,
Dave
 
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Old 08-28-09, 07:16 PM
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to me this is crazy...i`ve never heard of a well powered with
3-phase. you see and learn something every day.

it`s like another service drop for just the well.
where is the meter for the well?
 
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Old 08-28-09, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dwole View Post
Ok guys,
I am at home and I took a bunch of pictures to help clarify whats going on. I am not real good at posting stuff (this is my 2nd time) so bear with me. After taking the pics it appears that even though I have 3 phase power at my well, one leg is clearly disconnected (both at the breaker and at the pump electrical box) so I am guessing that someone replace the 3 phase pump with a 220 pump??
Photos (look in electrical)- PictureTrail: Online Photo Sharing, Social Network, Image Hosting, Online Photo Albums

Kind regards,
Dave
I belive it was oringally have three phase well pump and right now you have 240 volt single phase supply going to the well pump right now.

I do belive that time when the well pump was replaced the well driller pump guy only have single phase pump on hand and disconnected one of the three phase supply.

If you want to keep the three phase supply next time when the well go out you can rewired to run full three phase { the light will barely flicker due they will not affect the line to netural load not much at all compared to the single phase motors }

You have capitor start , capaitor run well pump but get the volt meter to veried the line to line connection to see if you got legit 208 or 240 volts

Some of CSCR well pump motors will not work with 208 volts supply so just watch out on that one.

Originally Posted by printer-man View Post
to me this is crazy...i`ve never heard of a well powered with
3-phase. you see and learn something every day.

it`s like another service drop for just the well.
where is the meter for the well?
Well pump with three phase power that is old school stuff and Yes I have three phase power well at my shop and it more common to find three phase power on well pump once you go over 5 hp level but for smaller one yes there is three phase pump can have small as half HP size but most common to see in 3/4 and above.

Majoty of city well pump motor are on three phase power supply no question asked plus with back up power source on hand either genertor or PTO jackshaft pump set up.


Merci,Marc
 
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Old 08-28-09, 08:01 PM
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merci beaucoup french277V,
So I will check to see whether I have the 208 or 240 running to to the pump.
Now back to the original questions for the barn. I am planning on adding a panel between the service disconnect (slow fuses) and the breaker. This would allow me to add a breaker for the well pump, and also add a new 100 amp breaker to feed the barn. Sounds like 4/0 alum is the smallest I can use to carry the load 400 ft? Is this an acceptable configuration? Should I use the same 2 legs of the 3 phase? Or should I select 1 used and 1 new leg? Comments?
Kind regards,
Dave
 
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Old 08-29-09, 10:29 AM
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Dwole.,

What I need to know right now what fuse size you have on the service disconnection there that will make the diffrence there.

The reason why I ask the disconnection fuse size due IMO some case the service drop can be too small if you keep the well pump and add the barn load and may end up replaceing the whole thing.

I will give you a example what will happend if you have to upgrade this.

Need new meter socket { check with POCO reguations to see what the minum size socket it will be used { I know the smallest they will allowed is 100 amp reguardless of single or three phase supply }

New sevice mast and new conductors due right now hard to say but I feel safe to say this in here is that you do not have netrual going to the service disconnect switch right now due you only have a true three phase supply on it.

New breaker box I know the three phase verison cost more than single phase espcally in 100 or 200 amp size { or 150 amp size will be good comperise size }

New ground rods to meet current codes.

Right now IMO that exsting overhead conductors that part is belong to the POCO { the one across the road }

once you get the service box up to the code the rest will fall in the place real easy

Speaking of 240 delta service just keep in your mind the delta system will come in both three and four wire format if latter {4 wire } you will have to watch out with wild leg and most POCO will not hook up delta any more expect the exsting one still on they will leave it alone much as they can all they will useally is upsize to match the main OCPD either fuse rating or main breaker

If you have legit wye service that will be peace of cake there

My POCO in my area in Wisconsin do not allow any more delta service to new customers at all due safety reason and yeah we have few exsting delta around that slowly dropping out of the grid format { In France it pretty much wye format the delta is about gone allready }

My shop have Wye connection there with 480Y277 with 400 amp main breaker there and have two transfomers one for shop and the other one go right to my house { the house on 208Y120 }

Now get back to the main issue right now as you mention 4/0 alum conductor and yes that will work with 100 amp service with 400 feet distance now you have two ways to do it is you can run this on single phase format which it will use only two of three hot conductors plus you will need new netural from the service drop { see above comment } or run full boat { full three phase } with 3X 4/0 alum for hot and 4/0 for netural and #4 for ground conductor.

But give you a head up some of the OCPD breaker or fuse may not able fit with #4/0's in the lugs so you may end up make a junction box below of it to splice a #1 CU or AL conductor to the breaker or fuse

IMO I know it may cost more on the full boat verison but in long run it will be a big plus due some of the machineray you will get which it will come in three phase it will be there without any issue

If you want to make sure just look up what the phase converter cost vs run fullboat set up will be the diffrence between the two is not very wide diffrence at all.


IF more question just holler one of us will steer ya right with the question

Merci,Marc
 
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