spaghetti, how do i wire this switch?

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  #41  
Old 11-01-09, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post

the main power soruce will tie to D and make a jumper lead to A that is power soruce for flourscent dimmer { becarefull those devices are not cheap and easy to find }

ok but i dont want any dimmers, i wanted the florescent on either my existing fan toggle (obviously this is impossible now that i played with the wires and found out i need all 3) so was wondering if i can get a combo switch so the top turns on the florescent with 3 wires and the bottom is an outlet ?

in place of the current dimmer will be the new fan timer (new in box in initial post pictures) and the fan only has black and white so i guess the green and red will be just taped up on the new timer
 
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Old 11-01-09, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by luckydriver View Post
ok but i dont want any dimmers, i wanted the florescent on either my existing fan toggle (obviously this is impossible now that i played with the wires and found out i need all 3) so was wondering if i can get a combo switch so the top turns on the florescent with 3 wires and the bottom is an outlet ?

in place of the current dimmer will be the new fan timer (new in box in initial post pictures) and the fan only has black and white so i guess the green and red will be just taped up on the new timer

Now let address the issue one at time so you can understand what is going on I know you have hard time to follow us but let do one step so we are on right track.

First thing first I know you say you unhook one conductor at the flourscent dimmer and it won't come on ok that the reason why you need two hot conductors to the flourscent luminaire by thin chance you may not have a ballast in the luminaire so the dimmer is a ballast controller what wattage the bulb you have on there ?

Right now I allready got a hold of Ray he will be more than willing to help me with drawing so bear with us { if he don't mind it at all Merci ! }

what you should do is take a quick peek inside the bathroom flourscent luminaire if you don't see the ballast in there then you will have good challange will come up I will deal with that in a minute but if have ballast in there tell us the number of conductors and model number if you can get into.

Now the next step I did do little digging the timer model number and I am pretty sure this is a correct one I know you can cap off green due the grounding conductor is not exsting in the junction box however the timer do need netrual to function so you will have to wirenuted the netural pigtail together with other netual conductor in switch box.

Next step you see red conductor from the timer .,, Ok that is the load side you will hook that up to the fan hot conductor and black conductor from the timer that is line supply so hook up to the hot { live } source it should be straght foward task there.

I will let Ray make a drawing I am sure he will be happy to do it so give him a little time he will make one

Ray if you have issue just get a hold of me I will guide ya the way

I will make a drawing and try to scan it and send it on photobucket so I can paste it here

Merci, Marc
 
  #43  
Old 11-01-09, 07:14 PM
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This assumes you install new light or ballast. Your silver screw for the receptacle is I believe opposite of the one in my picture. Keep that in mind as you wire. My silver screw is correct to the width of slots so I didn't change it. The important thing is that one side of the combo switch/receptacle two brass screws. The connections I show on the left must be made on that side.

 

Last edited by ray2047; 11-01-09 at 08:01 PM.
  #44  
Old 11-01-09, 07:39 PM
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I'm posting this image for Marc. If you see any differences between his and mine follow his.

 
  #45  
Old 11-01-09, 07:42 PM
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Thanks Ray for putting up the drawing sorry it was bigger than I expected


Merci, Marc

P.S.

Rouge - Red
Noir - Black
Blanc - White
Vert - Green
 
  #46  
Old 11-02-09, 05:06 PM
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Marc's is tecnically more accurate that the others, unless you ignore wore positions nd jut use terminal colors.

That said, if a GFI recetpical/switch combo will be installed there, it should be noted that the screw terminals will be the line/load of the GFCI; the switch will have a set of pigtails.
 
  #47  
Old 11-02-09, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by classicsat View Post
Marc's is tecnically more accurate that the others, unless you ignore wore positions nd jut use terminal colors.

That said, if a GFI recetpical/switch combo will be installed there, it should be noted that the screw terminals will be the line/load of the GFCI; the switch will have a set of pigtails.
Because of the limited space it was earlier decided he would probably use a GFCI breaker.
 
  #48  
Old 11-02-09, 07:07 PM
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Here is a revised diagram from Marc.

 
  #49  
Old 11-02-09, 07:16 PM
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Thank again Ray for all your extra work to post it up for me

Beer 4U2

Merci,Marc
 
  #50  
Old 11-03-09, 03:21 PM
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I had a nice long reply typed up but something crashed. So i'm just going to thank you for your help and let you know i cant rip apart the fixture until sunday at earliest.

i'm pretty sure is a ballast based on how my kitchen fixture acts because it's not grounded and i have to act like a ground myself lol
 
  #51  
Old 11-03-09, 05:20 PM
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Take your time. We'll be here.
i'm pretty sure is a ballast based on how my kitchen fixture acts because it's not grounded and i have to act like a ground myself lol
It is not so much that it is ballast based as what kind of ballast.

Good Luck,
Ray
 
  #52  
Old 11-04-09, 03:35 PM
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so are you saying based on if/what kind of ballast that i have to buy a switch particular to my application? here i thought one size fits all
 
  #53  
Old 11-04-09, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by luckydriver View Post
so are you saying based on if/what kind of ballast that i have to buy a switch particular to my application? here i thought one size fits all
If you have a dimable ballast probably the only kind of switch that will work is the one you have. You aren't likely to find a combo switch/receptacle that will work. That is why we have been saying you need to replace the ballast with a standard, non-dimable, ballast or install a new lighting fixture.

Your alternative to a new ballast or light fixture is to use your current setup and place the timer in a new box or expand your current box to three gang.
 
  #54  
Old 11-04-09, 04:05 PM
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does the fact that the current dimmer only runs on either no light or full light, with nothing in between, help at all? ie it doesnt dim

new fixtures arent an option..it's 2 rows of lights at least 6+ feet and i know i dont need to replace the exact thing but i just wouldnt feel like ripping those out and replacing them..it's hard to explain but it's like a 'box' above my sink that runs all the way to the wall. probalby is like 8ft long total x 2 ft wide
 
  #55  
Old 11-04-09, 05:06 PM
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does the fact that the current dimmer only runs on either no light or full light, with nothing in between, help at all? ie it doesnt dim
I'll leave that for Marc or one of the other pros. But I'm not yet convinced anything needs to be ripped out to replace the lights. Obviously it is designed so the bulbs can be changed which means you should be able to change the fixtures or ballasts. Of course I could be wrong. Can you post a couple of pictures.
it's hard to explain but it's like a 'box' above my sink that runs all the way to the wall. probably is like 8ft long total x 2 ft wide
The ones I have seen have removable defuser panels. The defuser panels are fragile but with care can usually be removed.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 11-04-09 at 07:29 PM.
  #56  
Old 11-04-09, 05:27 PM
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Thanks Ray and myself or Ibpooks will take over this one it can get little tricky to determed what is correct ballast it is.

Ok Luckydriver:

You say 6 foot somewhere like that size ok I know many luminaire do come in standard 12,18,24,36,48,60,72 and 96 inchers but there are other size but pretty much a special items so I will leave this out for now unless you have of them.

Take the defuser lens off it will either slide sideway or pop up so go easy at first it may be sticky over the years.

Once you get the diffuser off try to find the bulb number it will useally stamped on the end of the bulb but to remove the bulbs it will go either way by push it sideway or quarter turn depending on which type you got.

Once you remove the bulbs look at the cover screw unscrew or turn the thumbscrew and open up the chance getting to right spot where the ballast is { this is true on larger than 4 footers but with smaller than 4 footers it real easy to find it. { note make sure the power is off before you open up the cover }

Once you get it then a 50/50 chance you may able read the ballast info if not just count the numbers of conductors going in the ballast{ s } we can able determed which one you have.

Any one of two or three ways you can get the info and we will go from there and one way or other we will steer ya in right way to converted to correct non dimming ballast so you can use the simple switch.

Merci,Marc
 
  #57  
Old 11-06-09, 09:14 AM
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here are a few pics...rapid start bulbs only is stamped on there...now you see why i dont want to take them apart..just seems like a pain..and i never looked up there before really..it's 4 - 4ft fixtures apparently. But i guess if after these pics you say i have to rip them apart, i do







 
  #58  
Old 11-06-09, 10:27 AM
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It was what I expected and yes they are easy to take apart or replace. I have replaced this kind before and am speaking from experience, You remove the bulb then the the cover underneath, The cover is held by a couple of "bow tie" like fasteners, one on each end. You turn them 90° and it drops down. Third picture down shows the fastener. The fixture itself is probably held with a couple of screws up into the ceiling that should be obvious when the cover is removed.

Possibly there is a lack of communication here. If you can explain why you think it is difficult we can clear up the confusion.

The pros will walk you through the ballast part but I will add that usually new fixtures of that type cost less then the ballast.

You may wish to skip this part of my answer to avoid confusion but looking at what you have I think you could replace the existing four 4 foot fixtures with a single two tube 8 foot fixture down the middle. Haven't priced them but this might be the cheapest way.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 11-06-09 at 10:55 AM.
  #59  
Old 11-06-09, 11:49 AM
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Old 11-06-09, 11:54 AM
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do you mean an 8ft like this will work with my existing combo switch?

Metalux at Lowe's: 97-1/4" Utility Fluorescent Strips

 
  #61  
Old 11-06-09, 01:14 PM
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Yes, that will work with the regular switch in your combo. I did a bit of pricing after posting and it would actually be a w bit cheaper to put in the single fixture. You could even do it with out removing the ones there. Just move the power cable over to the new fixture. However please wait for the pros to weigh in on this. It does say "dimming circuits" on the label and on the diagram it shows three wires to "dimmer control".
 

Last edited by ray2047; 11-06-09 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 11-06-09, 09:43 PM
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Oh man yeah that ring the bell I knew it was a dimming ballast and I dealt with them and they are not cheap sonvagunner.

Now I know you mention 8 foot two lamp slimline .,

Don't use that one in bathroom the ballast will make noise so I will suggest get a 8 foot 4 lamp { F32-T8} that will put little more light than old dimming flourscent luminaire what you have in there now.

The cost is about the par on with slimline luminaire but nice thing is that with electronic verison if one bulb burn out it will not affect the others and it is a common bulb you can find them in any big box store { a tip make a writeing somewhere on the strip luminarie to give you a head up use only T-8 bulbs due both T-12 and T-8 are interchangable and you get little better light and colour format on T-8 than T-12 bulbs are

once you do that you can ditch that dimmer unit and cap off the red conductor cable you will not need it anymore.

or the other option you can do is get two lamp verison get two of them that will make it little easier to install it the wiring hook up is straght foward task and what more when you butt the two luminaire together use one end plate as joining plate which you will rotate and slide in diffrent slot you will see it if you get two 4 foot luminaires { two lamp verison } make sure you get electronic ballast it far much quieter and many case you will not hear them buzz at all that will make a big diffrence there.

cost wise for both luminaires it will be little more than standard 8 foot four lamp luminaire will be.

Merci,Marc
 
  #63  
Old 11-07-09, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post

Now I know you mention 8 foot two lamp slimline .,

Don't use that one in bathroom the ballast will make noise so I will suggest get a 8 foot 4 lamp { F32-T8} that will put little more light than old dimming flourscent luminaire what you have in there now.
when i shop for lights how do i know which ones will make noise and which dont? for example how did you know the one i linked to would make noise? I need to know the secret can you maybe choose one good one at Lowe's Home Improvement: Buy Kitchen Cabinets, Paint, Appliances & Flooring

Originally Posted by french277V View Post


once you do that you can ditch that dimmer unit and cap off the red conductor cable you will not need it anymore.
it will be nice to just hook up a black and white wire !

Originally Posted by french277V View Post
or the other option you can do is get two lamp verison get two of them that will make it little easier to install it the wiring hook up is straght foward task
i assume that means just twist up the blacks and whites together.



Originally Posted by french277V View Post
make sure you get electronic ballast it far much quieter and many case you will not hear them buzz at all that will make a big diffrence there.
i did a search for electronic ballast at lowes and only got 3 hits, is that a rare thing to have these days or just a bad selection there? also i searched at homedepot and got zero hits.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...tronic+ballast
 
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Old 11-07-09, 07:41 AM
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Luckydriver:

Give me a day I will dig in deeper I have connections with big bleu or Homer store once I get correct info plus stock number as well so you can able find it.

The reason why I mention about slimline ballast just trust me I done this stuff for over 20 years in both USA and France { of course I am Electrician by trade } and I run into them in commercal/industrail places more than I care to count. 90% of the slimline ballast are standard magatic so they will buzz just like electric shaver but either quiter or louder so that one thing I really have condersation about that due in bathroom you don't really want any extra noise in there so keep it quiet that will help a bit.

I know you took a photo of the exsting luminaire and I am pretty sure you can heard them buzzing but not super loud but with slimline verison just increase the factor of 2 or more you can see why I suggest electronic verison far much quieter. { et big plus no flicker with electronic ballast at all }

And what more many big box store do have them but they will not listed on their website they only put on the fast moving items.

Now speaking connections if you going have two luminaire hook up together just go Black to Black et White to White that simple nothing fancy connections at all.


I will be back tommrow with the stock number so you can able find them in your area plus model number as well.

Have a nice Jour { day }

Merci.
Marc
 
  #65  
Old 11-07-09, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
This assumes you install new light or ballast. Your silver screw for the receptacle is I believe opposite of the one in my picture. Keep that in mind as you wire. My silver screw is correct to the width of slots so I didn't change it. The important thing is that one side of the combo switch/receptacle two brass screws. The connections I show on the left must be made on that side.


i'm studying this now and i see the fan black will go to the new timer red and then a black from the outlet is supposed to go to the black from the timer.

i found the instructions for the timer online and i must say that without your diagram above i wouldnt be able to figure that out lol. I'd be scared to put red to black.

http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/fi...20english.ashx

and they say :

Connect red timer wire to wire from fixture using wire connector. Connect black timer wire to the “hot” (usually black or red)
wire in junction box using wire connector. Cut white wire in junction box (or open splice) and strip 1/2” of insulation on both wires.
Connect white timer wire to white wires in junction
box using wire connector. (See Fig. 2)
 
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Old 11-07-09, 09:12 AM
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one additional question...does the gfci breaker in the box have to be immediately installed to make this work? i havent researched that item yet.

is this an example of what i need? i didnt check the amps on the breaker yet.

Square D Company at Lowe's: 20 Amp Single Pole Ground Fault Circuit Breaker


and are these good instructions? i never did this before nor took apart a box

How To & Help - Installing a GFCI, how to install a GFCI
 

Last edited by luckydriver; 11-07-09 at 09:30 AM.
  #67  
Old 11-08-09, 05:14 PM
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Luckydriver:

I got the stock number from big orange box I did try to dig up with big bleu kinda mixed bag however let me run by the number to ya

8 Foot 4 lamp verison
SKU 393-451

Manufacter:
Lithonina
# TL232120EGBSC { this model number may not be correct I will have to dig it little more deeper to verify it }

the other one is two lamp verison

SKU 453-825
#C232120GESB

this one is two lamp electronic ballast verison

Merci.
Marc
 
  #68  
Old 11-09-09, 05:16 PM
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thanks for the suggestions..i guess i'm having bad luck searching. I was able to find the bottom one right on the canadian site but neither on the .com site. I'm definitely leaning more towards just 8ft of 2 lamps. the lights arent used much now but i just want things to be functional.

I may just try to install the fan switch this week and let the lights go until i can get this pinned down.
 
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Old 11-09-09, 08:21 PM
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That one thing that the big box store website will NOT list everything if some reason why you can't find it stop by electrical supply centre they will always have this on stock

just ask for 8 foot 4 lamp F32T-8 strip luminaire they know what it mean and they will get it one for ya real quick.

the cost between the two is not much diffrence at all due the four lamper is electronic ballast so it will be very quiet compared to slimline { yeah if too cool or hevey moisture they will flicker espceally true with mangatinc ballast.}

typically they are about 45 to 55 USD

Merci,
Marc
 
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Old 11-10-09, 03:35 PM
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i found a 4ft one

Lithonia Lighting 4 Ft. Commercial Wraparound Lens 4-Bulb 32 Watt T8 Fluorescent Fixture - LB 4 32 120 1/4 GESB at The Home Depot

and it says electronic ballast, which you said was the most important thing i think. And it says t8.

so is it safe to say anything that's electronic and T8 is good. I think i learned that
 
  #71  
Old 11-15-09, 06:14 AM
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went to home depot and found a t8 with 2 32 bulbs and electronic ballast for only 19 bucks. sounds like a steal to me.

It's only 5 inches wide but i hadnt measured between my existing fixtures to see if it would fit and make it a very ez job Came home and measured and yes it would fit. i still may take the old ones down, just unsure i want to even bother since no one sees them. So this is good news.

also it still makes me a bit nervous that the new light comes with ground and i dont have a ground but if you say it will work then i'm happy
 

Last edited by luckydriver; 11-15-09 at 06:49 AM.
  #72  
Old 11-15-09, 08:10 AM
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went to home depot and found a t8 with 2 32 bulbs and electronic ballast for only 19 bucks.
Very good deal indeed.


........
 
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Old 11-27-09, 02:20 PM
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Luckydriver, Are you still alive? This thread is terrifying. Did you install a GFI Circuit breaker? Did you pull out some of the white cable in the box and discover that there was a bare copper ground inside? Sorry if you said that but H1N1 and ADD prevents reading the whole thread. Where are you? I would be happy to stop over and save your life. No charge.
Rbbit
 
  #74  
Old 11-29-09, 12:41 PM
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alive but even with all the parts at home just didnt get around to it yet.
 
  #75  
Old 11-29-09, 01:58 PM
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Glad to hear from you. Let us know how it comes out.
 
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Old 12-04-09, 10:33 AM
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i have a problem...i wired this exactly as you said except wiring the white wire from the timer right into the same screw that the white power in is on at the outlet) and nothing works..the breaker didnt pop and my tester shows zero current when i touch the wires...i confirmed the tester is working with another outlet.

i'm going to unhook things and test things one at a time but if i did hook up something wrong wouldnt the breaker pop or at least i see smoke lol

EDIT wow i dont know how this got misdiagnosed but the one set of wires that i thought was power in is NOT power in...the set i thought was the fan is really power in..so now i need to rethink where everything goes lol. I'm assuming its just a matter of shifting a few wires though..the principles havent changed

Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
This assumes you install new light or ballast. Your silver screw for the receptacle is I believe opposite of the one in my picture. Keep that in mind as you wire. My silver screw is correct to the width of slots so I didn't change it. The important thing is that one side of the combo switch/receptacle two brass screws. The connections I show on the left must be made on that side.

 
  #77  
Old 12-04-09, 11:03 AM
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Check that you didn't swap line and load on the timer. Verify that my diagram matches Marc's. If not use Marc's. What was the make and model of your timer? Edit: Just saw your edit so post back when you change the wires.

Also you wrote:
i wired this exactly as you said except wiring the white wire from the timer right into the same screw that the white power in is on at the outlet
You can not put two wires under one screws and it is not recommended you use the backstab for a second wire. Backstabs can be problematic. Pigtail and run the pigtail to the screw.
 
  #78  
Old 12-04-09, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post

Also you wrote: You can not put two wires under one screws and it is not recommended you use the backstab for a second wire. Backstabs can be problematic. Pigtail and run the pigtail to the screw.
i dont know what backstabs are lol.

whats the difference between putting 2 wires under the screw and having them separately run otherwise? They are both tightly screwed onto the outlet and seems ok to me.

that new fan switch is huge and i had to mallet it softly in there to even get it in as well as lining up the outlet to the new cover plate wasnt that much fun either. Also i dont even have any extra wire but about 6 inches that used to go to the fan dimmer....i guess i could slice it to 2 three inches and run one to outlet and one to timer but still dont get why just the one wire under another is a bad thing. Seems like i'm introducing 2 additional connections and lengths of wire in a very tiny space and that's more risky.

And while the 2 lights are pretty bright, sure wish i could have used the old ones too but that darn dimming ballast got in the way lol.



edit: is this a backstab? if so i dont have that

http://img2.timeinc.net/toh/i/a/tool...roblems-08.jpg
 
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Old 12-06-09, 09:30 PM
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I want to check on ya and did you get it running good so far ?

How you feel about the new luminaire in there ?

If having any issue let me know myself or Ray one of us will help you with the issue if it do arise.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 12-07-09, 03:16 PM
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everything is running great, i love being able to keep the fan on 30 min after i'm done , i hope it keeps my mold out, and the new light seems pretty bright as well. Love that it fit between my old fixtures so nothing else needed to be done there with them

but regarding the posting above, why is it wrong to put the white wire from the timer to the outlet?
 
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