What size and type should I use to run electricity 250 ft

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Old 10-26-09, 02:50 PM
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What size and type should I use to run electricity 250 ft

I currently have a barn that is wired with a sub panel of 60 amps, from the main panel at the house 250 ft away.

Project:

I want to run electricty to the deck/lake an additional 250 to 300 ft further back on my property from the barn.

The land to the deck is wooded and I have cleared a 20 foot wide path from the barn to the deck - somewhat winding.

I would like to have a light on a 4x4 post approx 8ft tall every 50 feet. The lights would be 60 watts (but I plan to use the 13 watt energy saving bulbs)

I would also like to have an outlet on every other post to run electric leaf blowers, electric pole saws or electric trimmers.

At the deck I would like to have five additional 60 watt lights (13 watt bulbs) and a couple of outlets to run the above mentioned or a stereo or TV.

What type of wire and awg should I use?
 
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Old 10-26-09, 09:39 PM
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There are few ways it can be done but couple question need to be addressed first

Do the post light do you want all to come on the same time by switch or photocell or indivuial luminaire come on it own ?
Will be control with switch at the barn or both barn et deck { at the lake } ?

once I know which way then I can able tell you the correct conductor size and conduit size as well.

Merci,
Marc
 
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Old 10-27-09, 05:25 AM
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Wire

What size wire do you have from the house to the barn?
 
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Old 10-27-09, 06:21 AM
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French277,

I would put a switch in the barn that would turn on/off all the lights and all of the outlets.


Wirepuller,

I did not wire the barn, not sure what awg they used. The barn has several Flouriscant lights and outlets and a receptacle for a welder.

Thank you for your assistance with my question.

I have looked all over these boards and nothing quite answers what I am trying to do.

Thanks

Holiday
 

Last edited by Holiday; 10-27-09 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 10-27-09, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Holiday View Post
French277,

I would put a switch in the barn that would turn on/off all the lights and all of the outlets.


Wirepuller,

I did not wire the barn, not sure what awg they used. The barn has several Flouriscant lights and outlets and a receptacle for a welder.

Thank you for your assistance with my question.

I have looked all over these boards and nothing quite answers what I am trying to do.

Thanks

Holiday
Holiday;

Ok I will write it up in a min but let me redirect the comment and I will answer much as I can for ya

For the oringal wiring in the barn can you go to your house or main breaker location and find a " barn " breaker if so can you tell us what rating that breaker is ? some case we can hit the target what size conductor it is. { if it have 60 amp breaker many time you will have at least #6 or larger conductor in there }

Keep in your mind many case with very long run it is very common to upsize the conductor to prevent serious voltage drop.

Now as you want switch to turn off everything both luminarie and recetpales right ?

This what my suggest here for light circuits run with #10 AWG either UF or in conduit { it have to be THHN }
And for receptale circuit this part I used 1800 watts at the end of run you will need #8 { that is the smallest conductor size I can go due the voltage drop If I suggest the #10 your weedwacker or leaf blower may not run properly due the voltage drop get too serve }

But here a trick I know it may get you a little headache but it work what you do is run 3/4 inch conduit for both light and receptale circuits the light itself will be #10 while the receptale itself will be #8 and yes of course you will have to make a pigtail to make the connection for the GFCI recetpale ( mantory per NEC code ) so you can have one GFCI receptale to handle at least first three the have second one to take care the rest due the distance many GFCI recetpale get little funky with very long run so keep it under 150 feet per GFCI recepale group { yeah I know you can string in #12 between from GFCI load side to next dupex recetple at other post } do the same thing with second GFCI recpectle that will take care the last post and the deck .

You can have two switches one for light and second one for GFCI recpetales.

I will get a hold someone to make a drawing

Merci, Marc
 
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Old 10-28-09, 07:09 AM
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French 277,

THANK YOU for your assistance.

The Main Panel shows a 60 amp breaker for the barn. Not sure what gauge wire it has.

To make sure I understand:

Run two individual wires

#8 for the Receptacles

#10 for the Lights

What awg should the neutral and the ground be?

or

8/2 or 8/3 for the Receptacles

10/2 or 10/3 for the Lights

Can I just run 8/2 as single cable for the whole project?

Thanks again

HolidayBeer 4U2
 
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Old 10-28-09, 07:57 AM
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Run two individual wires

#8 for the Receptacles

#10 for the Lights

What awg should the neutral and the ground be?
If THWN in conduit is used one black #8 for receptacle hot and one white #8 for for receptacle neutral. One #10 black for lights hot and one #10 white for lights neutral. A single #12 green or bare would serve as ground for both receptacles and lights.

If you use cable you don't use conduit except for protection where it come out of the ground. You would use one 8-2 UF cable for the receptacles and one 10-2 UF for the lights.
Can I just run 8/2 as single cable for the whole project?
Yes but then the lights would have to be on when you used the receptacles.
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
A single #12 green or bare would serve as ground for both receptacles and lights.
Not to be picky, but the ground would need to be #10 in this case. When the hots are upsized to compensate for voltage drop, the ground must also be upsized proportionally. Other than that all sounds okay to me.

You'll probably want to use at least double-gang or 4x4 boxes to deal with the larger wires. They don't bend nearly as easily as the #14 or #12 you may be used to dealing with.
 
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Old 10-28-09, 12:01 PM
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Thanks for the assistance.

Can THWN and THHN be used inter-changebly?

Which is generally cheaper?

What size breaker should I run the Lines from? 30amp?


Thank You

Holiday
 
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Old 10-28-09, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Holiday View Post
Can THWN and THHN be used inter-changebly?
They are technically different, THHN is used in indoor locations and THWN is used in wet or outdoor locations. However most wire sold today has both the THHN and THWN rating if you look at the tiny print on the wire. It's cheaper for the manufacturers to just make one wire that meets both requirements.

What size breaker should I run the Lines from? 30amp?
15A on the #10 wire powering the lights and 20A on the #8 wire powering the receptacles.
 
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Old 10-28-09, 01:10 PM
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Would any of this change if the dock is 500 feet from the barn? instead of 300 ft?

Thanks
Holiday
 
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Old 10-28-09, 02:01 PM
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I didn't do a full calculation, but the ballpark figure says that you should bump up the wires one size each. The #10s become #8s and the #8s become #6s. That also means you need to step up to 1" conduit instead of 3/4".
 
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Old 10-28-09, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Holiday View Post
Would any of this change if the dock is 500 feet from the barn? instead of 300 ft?
Yes.. You would need at least #8 for the lights and assuming 15 amps on the receptacles to get decent voltage drop #4. You might squeak by with #6 but barely but hard on motorized equipment.

Your cost is going to be the real shocker. At that point you may want to consider #4 three conductor aluminum mobile home direct burial cable. One conductor would be switched for the lights and one un-switched for the receptacles.

I may be wrong on this so wait for the pros. The cable would actually be 4-4-6 and I'm not sure you could use a #6 neutral or remark the neutral as the hot for the lights and remark one of the #4s as neutral.
 
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Old 10-28-09, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
I didn't do a full calculation, but the ballpark figure says that you should bump up the wires one size each. The #10s become #8s and the #8s become #6s. That also means you need to step up to 1" conduit instead of 3/4".
Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Yes.. You would need at least #8 for the lights and assuming 15 amps on the receptacles to get decent voltage drop #4. You might squeak by with #6 but barely but hard on motorized equipment.

Your cost is going to be the real shocker. At that point you may want to consider #4 three conductor aluminum mobile home direct burial cable. One conductor would be switched for the lights and one un-switched for the receptacles.

I may be wrong on this so wait for the pros. The cable would actually be 4-4-6 and I'm not sure you could use a #6 neutral or remark the neutral as the hot for the lights and remark one of the #4s as neutral.

Both guys are on the target and yes you will need to bump up one size larger conductor and what more you will need 6X6X4 junction box to order get the larger conductor spliced in and yeah there is big bleu wirenut that work with #6 conductors { IIRC they are listed with two #6's plus a #12 } otherwise Polaris connector block will work very well for this useage { I know they are not cheap but heck alot better than use the split bolt and tons of black tape }

As far for grounding conductor aka bare or green conductor with that long run you MUST keep the grounding conductor the same size as line et netural conductor size the reason why due with that much distance if you keep standard size grounding conductor the chance of breaker trip during fault condtions may not trip at all.

Mobile Home feeder is driect bural and in conduit use { IIRC they used to be listed for both but check the number/lettering to make sure they are legit for both useage }

However only one gotcha with MH Feeders you will have to run the GFCI singlely each spot otherwise you will run into issue with it { just hook up to line side not the load side }

If you can get them in Alum conductor the cost will drop a bit but there is a trade off you will have to boost one size larger than copper due their charticis on the conductor rating.

If you have more question just holler one of us will steer ya right.

Speaking of deck / dock area near or at water be extra carefull the code is very strict in that area everything have to be GFCI'ed there is no loopholes on that one.{ I doubt that the lights may not need GFCI but check with your local code for latest info }

Merci, Marc
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:33 PM
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Given where this is going you may want to use a multi wire branch circuit. (MWBC). You could use 4-4-6-6 alumimum URD and a 20 amp 2-pole breaker. If you can find a 20 amp 240v GFCI breaker for your panel that would be simplest. If your interested we can give you full instructions but basically you would have 2 20a 120v circuits. One for the lights, one for the receptacles. Since the wire will be too large for most of the connections it will have to be pigtailed to #10 or #12 at each connection.
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:46 PM
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This idea what Ray suggest { I know he did talk to me in PM so I am allready up the speed } However something just click on my mind is the GFCI breaker with that distance it may not work but run couple GFCI recepetales instead of that

If you are instering with that route let us know we will give you the correct directions to go from there and yes of course you will need 6X6X4junction boxes for spices.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 10-29-09, 06:25 AM
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Thank You very much - for all of this information.

If possible please send me instructions.

I would prefer to run the lines so the receptacles and the lights are on the same switch.

In other words if the lights are off the receptacles are off.

Thanks
Holiday
 
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Old 10-29-09, 06:41 AM
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You could use a two pole switch or two single pole switches to independently control each if you go with the MWBC wiring using URD. Let us know if you decide on the the URD MWBC then ask specific questions about what you are unsure of.

At the breaker box preferably inside the breaker box if room or in a 6x6x4 Jbox outside pigtail a #10 wire to each of the hots and connect to the 2 pole breaker. If your holes are large enough in the ground and neutral bar connect the ground and neutral directly. If not either use an adapter lug that fits in two holes or pigtail to #10.

Note: #12 could be used for the pigtails because the voltage drop for a short length is not significants but I prefer to use as large a wire as will fit.


It would then go to a 6X6X4 J box where you want the switch. Connect the switch box to the J box with a short nipple and again use #10 or #12 pigtails. Use a two gang switch box if you want separate control of the lights. A single gang if you are going to use a double pole switch. An un-fused toggle type AC disconnect switch could be used as a two pole switch. Depending on the switch you may be able to make all connections in its enclosure and hook directly without pigtails.

Connections at the light post Jboxes will have to be made with Polaris connectors or split bolts. If you use split bolts wrap first with rubber tape then regular electrical tape. I like to use electrical insulating putty first but that is not really needed and it makes it difficult should you ever need to take it apart.

At each light use #12 THWN in conduit to connect to the light. You can screw a single gang weather tight box to the side of the 6X6 Jbox and install a GFCI receptacle. Seal the receptacle box to the Jbox side with silicon caulk . Use one hot wire for the lights and the other for the receptacles.

If you do not run in conduit use a short length of 1" PVC conduit to protect the cable where it come out of the ground. At the Jbox drill a hole for a PVCx Male 1" threaded adapter. Secure the adapter to the Jbox with a nut and glue the pvc in the other end.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 10-29-09 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 10-29-09, 06:48 AM
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I will suggest go with Ray's suggest IMO that is the best setup due the amout of conductor and the circuit setup and what more with MWBC the voltage drop is not too bad compared to single circuits.

I will make the materal list little later due I am working right now.

Ray you can go ahead and make the listing if you want to and I will step in to make a addition comment to make sure everything is legit setup.

Merci,
Marc
 
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Old 10-29-09, 06:04 PM
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Here the update :

Ray did cover it pretty well with all the materals listing

However just remember to bury the conductors or in the conduit if you go that route keep them at least 24 inches deep that will more than enough to meet the codes.

If any more question just holler one of us will steer ya right.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 10-30-09, 08:40 AM
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Gentlemen - Thankyou

I went to my local Electric Supply Warhouse and spoke with the owner.

I explained to him my project and that in an attempt to keep costs down you recommended Aluminum Wire.

He agreed it costs about 1/3 of what Copper does.

After a lengthy discussion on the positives and negatives of copper over aluminum he decided to cut me a deal for the copper wire.

I have:

500 ft spool of #6 THHN wire Black

500 ft spool of #6 THHN wire White

500 ft spool of #8 THHN wire Green

I still need to get the wire for the pigtails to the lights - but I should only need 100ft of that.

I still would like to have the lights and the receptacles on the same switch.

Lights are on, Receptacles are on.

Lights off, Receptacles off.

Should I run the wires off of a 20 amp breaker?

I plan to run the lines in conduit 24 inches deep.

Can I use standard PVC for underground conduit?

The jboxes would be at the bases of the posts with conduit running up to the lights.

Please let me know if I am missing anything else.

Thanks
Holiday
 
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Old 10-30-09, 10:12 AM
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500 ft spool of #6 THHN wire Black....
Check the markings on the wire. It must be THWN or THHN/THWN. It can not be just THHN.
Can I use standard PVC for underground conduit?
Yes, PVC is fine. 18" is usually deep enough for conduit.
I still need to get the wire for the pigtails to the lights - but I should only need 100ft of that.
#12 will be fine. You will need black, white, and bare, or green.
I still would like to have the lights and the receptacles on the same switch.
I will still suggest a toggle type unfused 60 amp AC disconnect switch. You would use only one of the two poles. The # 6 will connect directly so you won't need to pigtail to a smaller size as you would to connect to a 20 amp switch and it includes a Jbox so easier to install.
Should I run the wires off of a 20 amp breaker?
Yes, use a 20a single pole breaker. You will need to use a large blue wire nut to pigtail the #6 black to a #10 or #12 that fits the 20a breaker. If possible connect the white and green to the neutral and ground buses directly without pigtails. There are probably big enough holes or you can use an adapter lug.

Use GFCI receptacles. You can use large blue wirenuts for connections between #6 and #12, You can probably use 4X4X4 PVC junction boxes. Drill holes as need in the junction box with a hole saw.

3/4" PVC would probably be large enough but 1' gives room for later increase in wires if needed. and a bit easier pull.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 10-30-09 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 10-30-09, 01:18 PM
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[QUOTE=ray2047;1643320 I will still suggest a toggle type unfused 60 amp AC disconnect switch.
Just to clarify is this the correct switch.."Disconnect switch, non-fused, 63 A rating, with rotary black handle, DIN rail or panel mountable"

Use GFCI receptacles.

French 277 stated earlier that I would need 1 GFCI receptacle for every two standard receptacles, not to exceed 150 ft between GFCI receptacles????

3/4" PVC would probably be large enough but 1' gives room for later increase in wires if needed. and a bit easier pull.

Thanks - Do I need to do anything to the connections in the PVC or leave them alone in case I need to remove them to get to the wires?

Thanks
JF
 
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Old 10-30-09, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Holiday View Post
French 277 stated earlier that I would need 1 GFCI receptacle for every two standard receptacles, not to exceed 150 ft between GFCI receptacles????
That was back in the case when you were running separate circuits for lights and receptacles. Now that everything's on one line, I would use a separate GFCI receptacle at each box. Only connect wires to the LINE terminals, nothing to the LOAD terminals.

Thanks - Do I need to do anything to the connections in the PVC or leave them alone in case I need to remove them to get to the wires?
The PVC should be fully glued together, secured to the boxes and dried, then pull the wires through. You can run a string or rope through as you assemble the conduit to help with the pulling or use a steel fish tape, or suck a rope through with the shopvac after the conduit is assembled.
 
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Old 10-30-09, 02:45 PM
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"Disconnect switch, non-fused, 63 A rating, with rotary black handle, DIN rail or panel mountable"
That doesn't sound correct. There are two kinds pull out and toggle. The toggle kind looks like a single breaker (it isn't) mounted in a box.

You could just Use a good quality single pole light switch rated for 20a. in a switch box and use pigtails to reduce the size of the #6 if you want. The switch box would probably have to be a 2gang to have room for the wires.

AC Disconnect switch:
 
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