Wall Oven Wiring - Quick Question

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Old 10-27-09, 06:20 PM
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Question Wall Oven Wiring - Quick Question

Hello, I want to install a new wall oven - same brand/size/electrical-specs as my old oven - and it has 2 hot, 1 neutral and 1 ground wire. My old oven has an additional hot wire (orange).

Looking at the picture (below) showing how my old oven is connected, would I be correct to assume that to properly connect the new oven I'll have to replace the three 10amp breakers with two 15amp breakers-----then simply connect the red and black wires to the 15amp breakers and connect the white (neutral) and ground the same way the old oven is connected?

Edit: for some reason the picture is not showing up using IMG tags or as a direct url link?

http://i37.tinypic (dot) com/of0pqo.jpg

^That's the link. Please copy/paste/edit it to make it work.
 

Last edited by X-Tor; 10-27-09 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 10-27-09, 06:42 PM
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You can not use Tinypic for images. Most other are acceptable. Here is your image :

 
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Old 10-27-09, 06:56 PM
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Thanks Ray

Can you comment on my question?

Btw, what's the prob with Tinypic?
 
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Old 10-27-09, 07:40 PM
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It sounds like the previous oven was three phase. Here in the US ovens for residential use are normally on 30 amp or 40 amp circuits single phase. You would never have one on a 15 amp breaker, the smallest size used in our boxes so when you say 10 amp breaker I'm lost.

We have a couple of posters familiar with Canadian wiring so hang in there for an answer. Does the name plate on the old oven say 3 phase? Is this comercial?
 
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Old 10-27-09, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by X-Tor View Post
Thanks Ray

Can you comment on my question?

Btw, what's the prob with Tinypic?
First all., We did have major issue with tinypic sometime back and it have hidden link and got this place almost upside down so we disabled the tinypic to avoid any more issue with the readers.

Now the next step here is can you run the new oven nameplate info real quick and what more with new oven you will need a double pole breaker but I will tell you the amp rating in a min after you give me a quick info on nameplate

Merci,
Marc
 
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Old 10-27-09, 08:13 PM
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Thanks guys,

In my basement (on the main panel) there's a dedicated circuit for the oven. Here's a picture of it:



The new oven (like the old oven) requires a 30amp circuit. The junction box with the three 10amp breakers is located directly below the oven. Each hot wire from the old oven (orange, red, black) connects to a separate 10amp breaker.

The instructions for the new oven describe how to wire it up using using direct wire to wire connections. I'm not sure why I have breakers in the junction box below the oven... I'm guessing it may have something to do with the dedicated oven circuit on the main panel in the basement which looks like it's 30amps x2 = 60amps? or maybe having breakers near the oven is required by the electrical code in Canada.

In any event, do you now understand what I'm getting at with my question, or will you need some additional info and/or the electrical specs listed on the oven?

I'm a complete novice with this stuff, but it seems to me that if my old oven was rated for 30amps and had each of it's 3 hot wires connected to separate 10amp breakers, the new oven (also rated for 30amp but only having 2 hot wires) will need two 15amp breakers?

Thanks again
 

Last edited by X-Tor; 10-27-09 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 10-27-09, 08:56 PM
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To order get your new oven working properly you will need true two pole breaker let me run the number due you have SqD box there allready so here the number

QO230 that is the breaker number the red and black conductor will hook up at proper hot termail on breaker and white { netural } will be on netural bussbar and bare or green will go to grounding bussbar and ya good to go from there.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 10-27-09, 11:37 PM
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Merci beaucoup!

I found the breaker you recommended on the Home Depot Canada website HERE and I was all ready to go in tomorrow to purchase it, when:

You won't believe this, I climbed under the cabinet and pulled out the three '10amp' breakers from the box and guess what? they're not 10amp breakers! ...I feel so so stupid.

There's a big "10" printed in white on each breaker and knowing the oven is rated for 30amps I figured it made sense (to me, an electrical novice) that each of the oven's 3 hot wires would be connected to it's own 10amp breaker.

But now that I have the breakers out and can look at them closely, I see that the white "10" is followed by a small comma and three super tiny white zero's, and the breaker switches (that I originally thought were blank) each have a number (not '10') in slightly raised lettering on them!....... I'm very sorry for the confusion I've caused.

If you look at the picture of the box with my old oven connected, the breaker amp ratings are (actually) as follows:
- Orange wire connected to 15amp breaker
- Red wire connected to 30amp breaker
- Black wire connected to 30amp breaker

So would I be correct to assume that I can use the two 30amp breakers I already own to connect my new oven? (red wire to one, black to the other).
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:17 AM
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Are the two 30 amp breakers actually tied together, a double pole breaker?
 
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Old 10-28-09, 06:06 PM
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You need a double pole breaker, like frenchy said. QO230 is a QO style, 2-pole, 30A breaker.



Two things I notice about your subpanel is that (1) there doesn't seem to be a romex clamp holding the feed wire in place on the bottom, and (2) if this were the US, both of your panels would be upside down!

The NEC used in the US specifies that when a circuit breaker is installed vertically (like yours), the "up" position of the handle must be "ON", and the "down" position must be "OFF".
 
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Old 10-28-09, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Are the two 30 amp breakers actually tied together, a double pole breaker?

Yes and No depending on what brand and set up and I belive the OP did have 2X QO130 breakers plus QO110 breaker in oringal format and to get two pole function properly one way it can be done is handle tie or swap out for legit true deal two pole breaker { Keep in your mind Ray the code is getting strict with two and three pole breakers they must have factory handle tied or a real mulitpole breaker }

Williswires:

The Canada code on breaker box is somehow diffrent than NEC as far for on and off postion they are little more leeway than NEC is but I belive they are starting to change that one as well

{ it pretty common to see the load centre mounted horzontal so you may get one row breaker " upside down "
France used to do that but no longer allowed too many issue as well}

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 10-28-09, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Are the two 30 amp breakers actually tied together, a double pole breaker?
Nope, all single pole. The old oven was connected as follows:
- Orange wire connected to 15amp breaker
- Red wire connected to 30amp breaker
- Black wire connected to 30amp breaker

Originally Posted by french277V View Post
To order get your new oven working properly you will need true two pole breaker let me run the number due you have SqD box there allready so here the number

QO230 that is the breaker number the red and black conductor will hook up at proper hot termail on breaker and white { netural } will be on netural bussbar and bare or green will go to grounding bussbar and ya good to go from there.

Merci.
Marc
Thanks to you, I know I need THIS double pole breaker. However, I'd really like to know why it's necessary. I don't doubt I need it, I'm just curious why I need it?

Given that the old oven used the separate 30amp single pole breakers, albeit with an additional hot (orange) wire connected to a 15amp single pole breaker, what is it about it's electrical requirements that allow it use the 30amp single pole breakers, and what's different about the new oven that doesn't allow it to use them? Here's all the electrical info printed on their nameplates.

- Old oven: 5.4 - 4.0 Kw, 120/240V-AC, 60Hz, 3-wire AC only.
- New oven: 3.6 - 2.7 Kw, 120/240V - 120/208V

Thanks again guys. . .
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:01 PM
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I will give you a very short et sweet answer.

with single pole breakers set up :

With one of the two conductor decided to short it out one of the breaker will trip but maybe or maybe not the other breaker will trip as well and also with safety side of view if one of the breaker pole is off the other one still on you still have 120 volts still alive and if you work on something a good chance you can get " zonked " if not carefull.

With a true two pole breaker :

With one of the conductor decied to short out both breaker pole will trip and turn off power to both conductor not just one as above and it will be alot more safer as well

I know you can use handle tie but will both trip not always the case kinda shoot in dark and hit or miss the target.

And the other reason why once you hook up new conductor in the breaker box it will be good time to bring it up the code so that way you will not have any issue later on the time plus it much quicker to indeitfly and turn off as well.

So for two pole breaker it worth it I done the same thing with few of my customer setup simair to your breaker box

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post
The Canada code on breaker box is somehow diffrent than NEC as far for on and off postion they are little more leeway than NEC is but I belive they are starting to change that one as well

{ it pretty common to see the load centre mounted horzontal so you may get one row breaker " upside down "
France used to do that but no longer allowed too many issue as well}

Merci.
Marc
Thanks for the info - I figured Canada might not have that code since I see his DP breaker in the main panel has one OFF facing up, one facingdown...same with the "30"s molded in the handles...
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:28 PM
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Williswires:

Sure anytime I am more than happy to help ya and I know you will learn something along the way.

If you have more question ya can holler one of us will help ya.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post
I will give you a very short et sweet answer.

with single pole breakers set up :

With one of the two conductor decided to short it out one of the breaker will trip but maybe or maybe not the other breaker will trip as well and also with safety side of view if one of the breaker pole is off the other one still on you still have 120 volts still alive and if you work on something a good chance you can get " zonked " if not carefull.

With a true two pole breaker :

With one of the conductor decied to short out both breaker pole will trip and turn off power to both conductor not just one as above and it will be alot more safer as well

I know you can use handle tie but will both trip not always the case kinda shoot in dark and hit or miss the target.

And the other reason why once you hook up new conductor in the breaker box it will be good time to bring it up the code so that way you will not have any issue later on the time plus it much quicker to indeitfly and turn off as well.

So for two pole breaker it worth it I done the same thing with few of my customer setup simair to your breaker box

Merci.
Marc
Beer 4U2 So re-using the two separate single pole 30amp breakers with the new oven would (technically) work? However, with the double pole breaker I gain extra safety, convenience, and I bring my panel up to current code.

Would I be correct to assume that, if something were to malfunction, the double pole breaker may prevent damage to the oven's electronics that the single pole breaker setup would not prevent?

Btw, I'm just curious, if you had my old oven with it's 3 hot wires, how would you have it connected to the panel?
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by X-Tor View Post
Beer 4U2 So re-using the two separate single pole 30amp breakers with the new oven would (technically) work? However, with the double pole breaker I gain extra safety, convenience, and I bring my panel up to current code.

Would I be correct to assume that, if something were to malfunction, the double pole breaker may prevent damage to the oven's electronics that the single pole breaker setup would not prevent?

Btw, I'm just curious, if you had my old oven with it's 3 hot wires, how would you have it connected to the panel?
Techally yes it will work with two single pole breaker but for safety issue the double pole breaker is far much safer set up and less things can go wrong in the hurry

the only time it will not prevent damage if you have lost netural and I know majorty of oven do have 120 volts for light and electronic controler and with unbalanced voltage it will make a magic smoke.

Now to answer your last question yeah with three pole yes it can be done with handle tie in kit and I done that couple time with three phase supply { not too crazy with it but I know it possible but will all trip the same time ? naw just like shooting in dark }

Merci,
Marc
 
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Old 10-28-09, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by williswires View Post
Thanks for the info - I figured Canada might not have that code since I see his DP breaker in the main panel has one OFF facing up, one facingdown...same with the "30"s molded in the handles...
Here's the un-cropped picture of the main panel in my basement (bottom left is the oven circuit - turned off).

Please note; the labeling on the panel was not done by me!

 
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Old 10-28-09, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post
Techally yes it will work with two single pole breaker but for safety issue the double pole breaker is far much safer set up and less things can go wrong in the hurry

the only time it will not prevent damage if you have lost netural and I know majorty of oven do have 120 volts for light and electronic controler and with unbalanced voltage it will make a magic smoke.

Now to answer your last question yeah with three pole yes it can be done with handle tie in kit and I done that couple time with three phase supply { not too crazy with it but I know it possible but will all trip the same time ? naw just like shooting in dark }

Merci,
Marc
Thanks Marc, I'm going to purchase a SquareD 30amp double pole breaker at Home Depot tomorrow.

As for my old oven connection, are you saying you'd connect it the same way I had it connected: orange, red, black to separate single pole 15, 30, 30, amp breakers----but with the addition of a handle tie in kit?

Wouldn't it be better to leave the orange wire connected to the 15amp single pole breaker and use a 30amp double pole breaker for the red and black wires----and also clamp the 15amp breaker to the 30amp double pole with a tie-in-kit?
 
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Old 10-28-09, 09:32 PM
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The 15 amp breaker is not used for your new oven.
 
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Old 10-28-09, 09:34 PM
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With new oven I don't think you will ever need that orange conductor at all as I did look at the photo above the page here.

you can able leave that breaker as spare for something else or get a blank cover filler in the place of old single pole breaker.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 10-28-09, 09:54 PM
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Right, it's the old oven that has an orange hot wire and since the new oven doesn't, I won't be needing the 15amp single pole breaker anymore..... I was just wondering if you guys think my old oven was connected correctly (as seen in the original picture I posted) or if you would have done it differently?

Now that handle-ties have come up in this discussion, I have to ask: With my new oven, wouldn't purchasing a handle-tie-kit (about $3 or $4) and using it on the two 30amp single pole breakers I already own be an option for me-----compared to spending $23 (inc. tax) on a 30amp double pole breaker?
 
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Old 10-28-09, 10:00 PM
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It is your call and yeah the handle tie will work just fine for your useage and with handle tie it will make it look more legit.

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 10-28-09, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by french277V View Post
It is your call and yeah the handle tie will work just fine for your useage and with handle tie it will make it look more legit.

Merci.
Marc
Good, so maybe I can save myself $20-bucks with no downside.

Would THIS work with my SquareD 30amp single pole breakers? It's actually the only handle tie I can find on the net (selling at a store in my area).
 
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Old 10-29-09, 06:29 AM
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As Marc and others have said it is better to use a 2 pole breaker. It is never advised to jerry rig parts from another manufacturer. Just get the correct breaker.
 
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