Grounding outlets

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Old 11-14-09, 11:25 AM
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Grounding outlets

I had similar questions in a previous post but will piggy back this thread instead of bringing that one back to life.

So if I use a GFI on a circuit - as long as it's the first receptacle in the circuit - I don't actually need to then run a ground back the the panel from that GFI? I was under the impression it needed to be grounded but the rest of the receptacles in the circuit then didn't to be as long as they were labeled correctly. Am I wrong on this?

Also if you were to run a ground from an EXISTING circuit back to the service panel you could then connect each receptacle/switch in the circuit to that wire (using a junction box and running the wire as you would normal romex) and make it code that way correct? The catch here is you have to run a separate ground for EACH circuit all the way back to the panel?

My last questions is when fishing wire from a basement up to an existing receptacle can I use regular nm-b romex or do I need to used sheathed wire because obviuouly I cannot secure the wire in the wall cavity to the stud the appropriate distance from the stud face. I'm assuming sheathed wire is the preferred wire type here but if I can use regular romex that would be cheaper and easier.
 
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Old 11-14-09, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by shane21 View Post
I had similar questions in a previous post but will piggy back this thread instead of bringing that one back to life.
It is better to just start a new post rather then piggyback on an existing one. Avoids any confusion.

Originally Posted by shane21 View Post
So if I use a GFI on a circuit - as long as it's the first receptacle in the circuit - I don't actually need to then run a ground back the the panel from that GFI? I was under the impression it needed to be grounded but the rest of the receptacles in the circuit then didn't to be as long as they were labeled correctly. Am I wrong on this?
You may install a GFCI, either breaker or receptacle, on a ungrounded circuit. If you use a receptacle, you can put it in the first box and wire it using the LINE and LOAD ports on the device. You can also replace all old two wire devices with GFCI receptacles using only the LINE of the device. OR you can protect the entire circuit using a GFCI breaker. All devices should be marked "no equipment ground" no matter what method you use.

Originally Posted by shane21 View Post
Also if you were to run a ground from an EXISTING circuit back to the service panel you could then connect each receptacle/switch in the circuit to that wire (using a junction box and running the wire as you would normal romex) and make it code that way correct? The catch here is you have to run a separate ground for EACH circuit all the way back to the panel?
You can run a single ground wire of the proper size to each box (receptacles are only required) It is not necessary to run a separate ground for each circuit but you can. If you run a wire then standard 3 wire devices may be used.

Originally Posted by shane21 View Post
My last questions is when fishing wire from a basement up to an existing receptacle can I use regular nm-b romex or do I need to used sheathed wire because obviuouly I cannot secure the wire in the wall cavity to the stud the appropriate distance from the stud face. I'm assuming sheathed wire is the preferred wire type here but if I can use regular romex that would be cheaper and easier.
Fished cables are not required to be strapped. It is OK for you to use NM-B (romex) for fishing walls/ceilings.
 
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Old 11-14-09, 11:48 AM
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So if I use a GFI on a circuit - as long as it's the first receptacle in the circuit - I don't actually need to then run a ground back the the panel from that GFI?
That is correct.
I was under the impression it needed to be grounded but the rest of the receptacles in the circuit then didn't to be as long as they were labeled correctly. Am I wrong on this?
The GFCI does not need a ground to function and provide personal safety. It will not provide a ground and it and any other receptacles on the load side should be marked GFCI no equipment ground.
Also if you were to run a ground from an EXISTING circuit back to the service panel you could then connect each receptacle/switch in the circuit to that wire (using a junction box and running the wire as you would normal romex) and make it code that way correct? The catch here is you have to run a separate ground for EACH circuit all the way back to the panel?
The consensus of the pros here seems to be that the intent of the NEC section is to provide single receptacle grounding but some inspectors may permit daisy chaining back to the panel. So the intent of the NEC is not single circuit as you wrote but single fixture.
My last questions is when fishing wire from a basement up to an existing receptacle can I use regular nm-b romex or do I need to used sheathed wire because obviuouly I cannot secure the wire in the wall cavity
It is not required to fasten the cable. You may use NM-b if permitted for residential wiring in your area.
 
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Old 11-14-09, 03:12 PM
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Ok now i think i'm still confused.

Tolyn said: "It is not necessary to run a separate ground for each circuit but you can"

Ray2047 said: "The consensus of the pros here seems to be that the intent of the NEC section is to provide single receptacle grounding but some inspectors may permit daisy chaining back to the panel. So the intent of the NEC is not single circuit as you wrote but single fixture."

You both address the issue but I'm reading different answers. Tolyn says I don't have to return the ground to the panel even for EACH CIRCUIT and ray says ideally I should ground EACH RECEPTACLE with a wire all the way to the panel? That seems to me to be a huge discrepancy in interpretation.

Am I reading the answers wrong? Can someone clarify their opinion on this for me?
 
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Old 11-14-09, 04:53 PM
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Modern wiring practices (IE Romex, Conduit, MC, etc) there is only one ground daisy chained to each device in a circuit. Furthermore, if you have two or more circuits in a box, you tie all the grounds together effectively making them one the same. I see no reason to run a separate ground from each device, nor is there any reference in the code requiring you to do so.
 
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Old 11-14-09, 04:59 PM
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When in doubt ignore me and go with Tolyn Ironhand or one of the other pros. Sorry to confuse you.

My reply was based on: http://forum.doityourself.com/electr...ng-ground.html
Post #17 By aandpdan:
If you want to follow code, in a strict interpretation, you have to run the ground from each outlet to the service panel or the grounding electrode system (ground rods, plates) You can extend a circuit in this way, in an existing installation, using the correct cable (NM w/ground). It does not indicate that you can daisy chain a single ground wire along the entire run of outlets however.
 
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Old 11-14-09, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand View Post
I see no reason to run a separate ground from each device, nor is there any reference in the code requiring you to do so.
The problem is that the wording of the code is very specific as to where you can make the connection -

NEC 2008 version:
Section: 250.130 Methods of equipment grounding.
(C): Nongrounding receptacle replacement or branch circuit extensions.

The equipment grounding conductor of a of a grounding type receptacle or branch circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:

1. Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50.
2. Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor.
3. The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or the branch circuit originates.
4. For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure.
5. For ungrounded systems, the the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure.

It does not say you can connect to ANOTHER equipment ground, unless I am extending the circuit with an appropriate (w/ground) cable.

Remember, I've been saying "strict" interpretation. Your inspector may allow you to do this.

I'm starting to feel like the bad guy.
 
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Old 11-15-09, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by aandpdan View Post
I'm starting to feel like the bad guy.
Don't feel like a bad guy. You points are very good.

At this point I would have to say that is in the best interest of the OP to contact the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) to see what his/her requirements are.

The way I read the line #3 is that the equipment grounding conductor (the ground that would be added) is connected to the grounding terminal where the circuit originates. It does not say that the wire has to be unbroken (as with the grounding electrode conductor) or dedicated. The NEC doe not tell you everything that is allowed. It does however, tell you everything that is NOT allowed.
 
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Old 11-16-09, 05:17 PM
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Yea that's kinda how I interpreted it also Tolyn. It doesn't say it has to be an unbroken grounding conductor just that it has to terminate where the circuit originates.

Why can't codes be simple? How hard is it to just use plain wording so it's easily understood? I think it's because inspectors really don't know much and are given the power to make the codes. I know in my line of work the "people in charge" are forever correcting the codes because they continually see how real life application and their utopic ideals can never co-exist.

I think I may just daisy chain the grounds together for multiple circuits, connect them in approved and mounted junction boxes, and terminate the "trunk" at the panel using the most efficient routing method. I will need at LEAST 2 separate trunks, possibly 3, to get all the existing circuit grounds back to the panel. It's a small house and I don't think I'll have more than 2 circuits on any single "trunk" anyway. For all the accessible circuits I will run those with new nm-b and ground them correctly.

Thanks for the input guys. Electric is easy to do but knowing the technicalities always the complicated part for me. If nothing else I learned that I don't need metallic shielded wire in the cavities where I can't access to secure the wire, and even better that I can run just a ground wire to each existing circuit or receptacle rather than all new wire.
 
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Old 11-16-09, 06:17 PM
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I'm with you. Plain English would be easier.

Anyways, I'd only run the ground along one circuit and match the wire size to the gauge on the circuit.

Don't bring the ground from one circuit to another. I know it may not make sense but at least it would be more like using the correct w/ground cable.

Good luck!
 
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