Oven is NOT connected to a breaker!

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Old 12-10-09, 11:26 AM
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Arrow Oven is NOT connected to a breaker!

I'm replacing a 30 year old in wall electric oven, and the only way to cut power to it is to shut off the mains either outside by the meter, or inside on the main panel. I have shut off every breaker on the panel, and the two 40amp breakers that are outside by the meter, but the oven still gets power while EVERYTHING else in the house is dead. There is no other panel anywhere. I know every inch of this house from top to bottom (been here 20 years and done a lot of remodeling) Is it possible that this oven was wired directly to power with no breaker? The house was built in '57, this oven was probably installed in the late 60s - early 70s.
 
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Old 12-10-09, 11:54 AM
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How far away is the neighbors house?


and the only way to cut power to it is to shut off the mains either outside by the meter, or inside on the main panel. I have shut off every breaker on the panel, and the two 40amp breakers that are outside by the meter, but the oven still gets power while EVERYTHING else in the house is dead.
I don't understand. In one sentence, you say the only way to kill power is...

and then you say everything is dead except the oven.

Do you actually get the power cut to the oven at some point or not?

after re-reading this, I see that you never lose power to the oven, so, how far away is the neighbors house?


do you have overhead or underground service? If overhead, you should be able to see any connections from the power lines to the first disco. In that disco, if there are more than the lines from the power company in the lugs of the breaker or bus (however it is connected), I would see if you could determine if that is the same type of wire connected to the oven.

If you can't, at least you know there is an improper tap.

any possibility of pics of the panels and or disconnects so we can see the connections?
 
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Old 12-10-09, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
How far away is the neighbors house?


I don't understand. In one sentence, you say the only way to kill power is...

and then you say everything is dead except the oven.

Do you actually get the power cut to the oven at some point or not?

after re-reading this, I see that you never lose power to the oven, so, how far away is the neighbors house?


do you have overhead or underground service? If overhead, you should be able to see any connections from the power lines to the first disco. In that disco, if there are more than the lines from the power company in the lugs of the breaker or bus (however it is connected), I would see if you could determine if that is the same type of wire connected to the oven.

If you can't, at least you know there is an improper tap.

any possibility of pics of the panels and or disconnects so we can see the connections?
Sorry if I was unclear, and forgive me if I don't use the proper terminology, but I'll do my best.

I CAN cut power to the oven, but ONLY by turning off the mains either outside by the meter, or at the inside box where all the other breakers are. This, of course, effectively cuts power to the entire house, in the same way removing the meter or disconnecting at the pole would (overhead service, not underground).

I CAN'T cut power to the oven by using an individual breaker. It doesn't appear to be connected to one. I can cut everything else in the house by turning off all the individual breakers and leaving the mains on, but at that point the oven still gets power.

Is that better?
 
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Old 12-10-09, 12:16 PM
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yes and actually is different that what I thought I re-read.


so any chance of pics?

what kind of panel do you have?

do you see any large wire such as what you would have running to the oven in the panel box?

It is obvious the feed comes out of the inside panel evidenced by the ability to turn off the power with the mains in that panel. In fact, that means it is not tapped off the incoming lines to that panel because again, those mains turn that power off.

btw; proper terminology is helpful but as long as we understand each other, we are communicating and that is all we need.
 
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Old 12-10-09, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Flynnyrd View Post
Is it possible that this oven was wired directly to power with no breaker?
Yes it's possible. In fact my own house (same age as yours) had this when I first moved in, and I later found out many of the homes in the neighborhood were done the same way. The range was double lugged right on the top of the main fuse panel with no overcurrent protection at all! In my case a wholesale replacement of that old crap was #1 on the priority list anyway.

Have you opened up any of the panels to see if there are any suspicious connections? Range cables are pretty hard to miss as it's usually the biggest one in the box. I agree with nap that pictures might be helpful here if possible.

e: oops, looks like I'm late to the party
 
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Old 12-10-09, 12:27 PM
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Thanks for the help guys, looks like it IS connected directly with no protection. Guess it's time to call an electrician...
 
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Old 12-10-09, 12:54 PM
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since it appears it can be shut off by the main breakers in that panel, if you have room in that panel, we might be able to help you DIY if you are comfortable with the work.
 
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Old 12-10-09, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Flynnyrd View Post
Thanks for the help guys, looks like it IS connected directly with no protection. Guess it's time to call an electrician...
Sorry but I'm kinda confused LOL

I am understanding correctly if you cut power to the house at the meter the oven power is gone.

If you turn power back on at the meter and go inside and turn the main breaker off at the inside panel you can kill the oven power.

This does not sound like a tap to the line side of either panel.

Am I missing something in his description...??
 
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Old 12-10-09, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruto View Post

This does not sound like a tap to the line side of either panel.

Am I missing something in his description...??
No. The problem is he does not have a breaker for the oven. It sounds like it is tapped directly onto the bus somehow but it does appear the main breaker does cut off power to it.


he still needs to have a breaker specifically for the oven.
 
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Old 12-10-09, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
No. The problem is he does not have a breaker for the oven. It sounds like it is tapped directly onto the bus somehow but it does appear the main breaker does cut off power to it.


he still needs to have a breaker specifically for the oven.

Ahhh...ok I'm following now. Should be interesting how that is done...

I saw where he said that he couldn't turn off power to the oven from any beakers. I hadn't thought of someone tapping a bus that is tough without sub feed lugs or something.


Maybe turn off doubles and check with voltage tester to ground and make sure both lugs are denergized. I've seen where only one leg is killed and the other is good. Could be this is fooling him??

But He doesn't say if there is a double with fat wires on it..sooo maybe they tapped the busses...yeow. Hope it isnt alligator clips...
 
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Old 12-10-09, 02:07 PM
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OK guys may I embarrass myself by wondering if he has a split bus panel and is mistaking the oven breaker for a main breaker?
 
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Old 12-10-09, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
OK guys may I embarrass myself by wondering if he has a split bus panel and is mistaking the oven breaker for a main breaker?
Not an embarrassing question at all. Only problem with that is that all the power in the panel is turned off when he shuts what he is calling the main off. If it was the stove breaker it would only kill the stove. You cannot have both a main and a stove on the same breaker.
 
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Old 12-10-09, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruto View Post
Not an embarrassing question at all. Only problem with that is that all the power in the panel is turned off when he shuts what he is calling the main off. If it was the stove breaker it would only kill the stove. You cannot have both a main and a stove on the same breaker.
Agreed but I was wondering if he rally checked that it was killing all power. My only reason for bringing this up is I have seen posts go very long because of incorrect assumptions by the poster. I'm sure though the poster noticed all the lights go out so I will go back to lurker mode.
 
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Old 12-10-09, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Agreed but I was wondering if he rally checked that it was killing all power. My only reason for bringing this up is I have seen posts go very long because of incorrect assumptions by the poster. I'm sure though the poster noticed all the lights go out so I will go back to lurker mode.
Don't do that...it was a good question and often overlooked.
 
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Old 12-10-09, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Flynnyrd View Post
Thanks for the help guys, looks like it IS connected directly with no protection. Guess it's time to call an electrician...
So I just want to make sure what you are saying. You say you have a main breaker next to your meter and when you shut that off it will kill the power to your oven. Next you say in your panel in the house if you shut off that main it will kill your oven. Now you say if you have both mains on, the one next to your meter and in your panel box and shut off all your breakers in your panel the oven is still hot. Correct? So you must be tapped after the main breaker in the house panel. Do you see those bigger wires in your panel box not hooked to a breaker? Also, do you have any extra spaces in your panel? I think we may be able to help you with this. Pictures would be good.

Thanks!
Jim

 

Last edited by Tolyn Ironhand; 12-10-09 at 06:35 PM. Reason: fixed close quote
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Old 12-10-09, 03:55 PM
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I breezed thru the posts and I'm not sure if anyone made anything of the fact he said his outside mains are double 40 amps. Ever hear of anything that low....for a regular house?....from 1957? Thst is even lesser than the antique 60 amp service that had cartridge and wide base fuses.

Flynnyrd,

In the house circuit breaker box, are all the spots occupied with breakers or is there room for more?

Did the house originally have a gas stove?

Have you opened up the circuit breaker panel cover to see if someone doubled up the stove with the main? (I could only see someone doing something like this though if there was no more room for another double pole breaker, and they cheapened out)

If the outside double breaker says 40, what does the inside highest rated breaker say? And are you sure that also is a main?
 
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Old 12-10-09, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ecman51` View Post

If the outside double breaker says 40, what does the inside highest rated breaker say? And are you sure that also is a main?
The way i read the post I'm pretty sure the 40 amp breakers were in addition to the main outside...not the main itself probably a condensing unit...


You really need to take the cover off the panel and take a picture for a good diagnosis.
 
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