Siemens GFCI / AFI Combo?

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Old 12-18-09, 03:20 PM
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Siemens GFCI / AFI Combo?

Hello,

I am replacing my load center with a Generac Genready panel which utilizes Siemens breakers. While I know CH makes a GFCI/AFI combo breaker does anyone know if Siemens (or Siemens compatible) does?
 
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Old 12-19-09, 10:49 AM
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Is it an AFCI breaker which is called a "combination breaker"?

Does it says anywhere on the breaker packaging or documentation GFCI?

Or does it just use the word "combination"?

If just the word "combination" is used, then this is a specific type of AFCI breaker and not also a GFCI.
 
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Old 12-21-09, 10:12 AM
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Here are the basic categories. What combination of functions exactly are you looking for?

1) parallel arc AFCI also called a branch/feeder (70A protection) AFCI, generally permitted under the 2002 and 2005 NEC. Siemens part no. Q115AF (15A) Q120AF (20A)

2) series arc AFCI (5A protection) sold as a "Combination AFCI" because it provides both series and parallel arc protection. Required by 2008 NEC. Siemens Q115AFC (15A) Q120AFC (20A).

3) Class A GFCI "Personnel Protection" (5mA) -- required for bathroom, kitchen, outdoors, etc. Siemens QF115

4) GFCI "Equipment Protection" (30mA) -- for added fire/shock safety but not adequate for protection of people. QE115

All AFCI breakers provide #4, most new AFCI breakers provide #2 which includes #1 and #4. I don't think there's a Siemens breaker that provides both #2 and #3. Most of these listed have other amperages and available in 2 pole versions.
 
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Old 12-21-09, 08:43 PM
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And...

Thanks! I am someone who would rather overdo things than under do them and regret it later -- while NEC does not require GFCIs on the Dishwasher/Fridge/Disposal circuits, would I be better served/protected putting these dedicated circuits on a AFI or GFCI?

Also -- is there anything barring me from running certain circuits to simplex outlets connected to a few large UPSs(outlet circuits of course)? We have a standby generator but it takes ~1min to power up and I dispise blinky lights (or football interruptions!). I have a few 3000VA (2500W) UPSs intended for this purpose.
 
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Old 12-21-09, 10:00 PM
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Normally the Fridge is on GFCI circuit but it will be much wiser to keep it seperated circuit if that possible
For hardwired dishwasher and garbage dispoal I don't think they required GFCI unless the local code require it.

IMO for myself I will just add a GFCI breaker or faceless GFCI receptale and that way it will meet the code no question asked.

However with hardwired verison you will have to add a local disconnection anyway a simple single pole toggle switch will meet this requirement.

UPS on AFCI most case it not much issue what I heard but when you switch over to generator mode it may not affect the generator itself but the UPS it will depending on the setting on the UPS itself plus how tight the speed reguation on the generator itself that is the key issue there. { that one reason why I only have diesel generators due they are very tight on speed regulation itself +- half hertz ( locked in 60 HZ so will have 591/2 to 601/2 HZ in my generators in USA side France side it will be just 10 HZ less than USA is due I have 50 HZ in France }

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 12-22-09, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jssmke View Post
would I be better served/protected putting these dedicated circuits on a AFI or GFCI?
In my opinion, neither is required. AFCI is primarily designed to protect against fires from frayed cords, which is not an issue with immobile appliances. GFCI protects personnel against shock, however in the named appliances all of the energized components are surrounded by grounded metal frame, so it's very near to impossible that a shock could occur.

Also -- is there anything barring me from running certain circuits to simplex outlets connected to a few large UPSs(outlet circuits of course)?
No restrictions. The only code to be aware of is that a simplex receptacle must match the circuit amperage, so no 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit. A 20A simplex must be a T-slot style on a 20A circuit. A 3kva UPS should have a 20A cord anyway. If these circuits go to living spaces (bedroom, den, living room, office), the breaker will need to be AFCI regardless of the intended use.
 
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Old 12-23-09, 09:49 AM
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Thanks, I think I will leave dedicated kitchen circuits on normal breakers as you suggested.

For the "UPS" circuits, my solution was going to be add a small load center with each rail being serviced by one UPS. Since I will be only adding single pole breaks that shouldn't be a problem, and the UPS internally will trip if more that it's output is pulled. The goal of the load center is to be able to add combination AFI breakers on the service side. If I put the AFIs on the lines to the UPS I think when the UPS "conditions" the line it would defeat any benefits of the AFI supplying the UPS.

Any thoughts?
 
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Old 12-23-09, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jssmke View Post
The goal of the load center is to be able to add combination AFI breakers on the service side. If I put the AFIs on the lines to the UPS I think when the UPS "conditions" the line it would defeat any benefits of the AFI supplying the UPS.
Okay I understand the plan. The general idea here is to wire it just like you would with a standby generator panel, however you connect the UPS to the transfer switch inlet instead of a generator. Unless it is listed for the purpose, a UPS should not be hardwired so cords and inlets are required. You are correct that the UPS would defeat the upstream AFCI protection. I recommend that you contact the UPS manufacturer to get their position on AFCI breaker compatibility downstream of the UPS. My expectation is that it should work just fine as the UPS provides a better power source than the line does.
 
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Old 12-23-09, 10:48 AM
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I was thinking about this a little more. Could you describe the use of the UPSs more? What are they powering? Is the issue just that you want them in a different room than the protected load or do you intend to power more with them?
 
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Old 12-23-09, 06:40 PM
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Thanks for your time thinking about this. Here is the plan:

200A Service to a Generac GenReady Load Panel. Everything to be on generator service (20kW genset).

Two dedicated 30A 120V circuits to two 3000VA (2500W) UPSs. Each UPS will have two connections (12gauge) to a small load center. This is due to the UPS only having NEMA 5-15R outlets, and of course I want to supply 20A circuits.

The reasoning for the UPSs is to offer continuous power during genset powerup (~1min). I want to offer every room socket to be on this backup as well as a central location for battery replacement.

Here is a simple diagram:

<30A 120V> |---------| <30A 120V>
|---------|
|---------|
O (UPS) O (UPS)
|-| -----|-| <-- (2) 12Ga Connections
|-| -----|-| via Simplex outlets
########
|-|------|-| <-- Each UPS Supplying
|-|------|-| one panel rail.
|-|------|-|
|-|------|-| <-- Each outlet circuit
######## protected by AFIC
Small Panel breaker.
 
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