Basement wiring diagram review

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Old 03-01-10, 12:08 PM
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Basement wiring diagram review

Before calling in an electrician, I would like to have an idea of what needs to be done in my "finish the basement" task so I have taken a stab at a preliminary wiring design. I plan to do the work myself and then call in an electrician to inspect it and fix any problems they find before the basement goes live (with the permit inspection) (yes, it would be nice to have an electrician do everything from start to finish, but I just don't have the money). The more stuff I can get "right" in the first place, the less work the electrician will have to redo. Would you folks mind reviewing it and make suggestions for improvement or let me know about errors. I've attached the diagram. As I won't know how readable this will be until after the post, hopefully it will be ok. Hopefully I've included enough information to enable a useful review.

A - Blue, 12/2 WG, 120v on 20A AFCI breaker in upstairs main service panel. Bedroom outlets and ceiling light.
B - Dirty green, 6/3 WG, 240v of 60A breaker in upstairs main service panel. Feeds new basement subpanel.
#1 - Red, 12/2 WG, 120v on 20A breaker in subpanel. Game room outlets. Outdoor outlet.
#2 - Purple, 14/2 WG, 120v on 15A breaker in subpanel. Storage room light and outlet. Game room lights. Smoke detectors. Closet light. Outdoor light.
#3 - Cyan, 12/2 WG, 240 on 20A breaker in subpanel. Two 1600w heaters and thermostat in game room.
#4 - Green dotted, 12/2 WG, 240 on 20A breaker in subpanel. One 1500w heater (built-in thermostat) in bedroom.
#5 - Green, 12/2 WG, Sewage pump alarm outlet (GFCI?), Bathroom fan, light, and GFCI outlet.
#6 - Yellow, 14/2 WG, 120v on 15A, sewage pump.
#7 - Beige, 14/2 WG, 120v on 15A, refrigerator and one more outlet.



Jess (Oregon)
 
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Old 03-01-10, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Majesticjess View Post
I plan to do the work myself and then call in an electrician to inspect it and fix any problems they find
You may want to get an electrician on-board first as you could have trouble finding an electrician to finish your work. The reason is that they cannot guarantee the quality and safety of your work under their license and insurance.

#5 - Green, 12/2 WG, Sewage pump alarm outlet (GFCI?), Bathroom fan, light, and GFCI outlet.
The sewage pump alarm should be on circuit #6 yellow instead of the bathroom circuit in my opinion.

Everything else looks okay to me by code. If you are on NEC2008, circuits A, 1, 2, 7 will need AFCI breakers. If you are on NEC2005 only circuits A and probably 2 will need AFCI breakers.

My notes:
Circuit #4 could be a 120V/1500W heater if spaces in the panel are at a premium. Or you could eliminate ckt #4 and upgrade ckt #3 with a 30A breaker and #10 wire powering all three heaters. Why bother with the 15A and #14 receptacles circuits when you have #12 for everything else? I would probably do ckts 6 & 7 with #12/20A just because the incremental cost is very small for 33% more power.
 
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Old 03-01-10, 06:56 PM
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#1 Red circuit, make the outdoor outlet a GFI receptacle
#6 Yellow, I'd also make sewage pump a GFI receptacle
#7 Beige, I'd make the fridge a dedicated circuit
Assuming the smoke detectors are interconnected, I'd also put one in the storage room too. Are they also connected to upstairs smoke detectors?
 
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Old 03-02-10, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by CasualJoe View Post
#1 Red circuit, make the outdoor outlet a GFI receptacle
#6 Yellow, I'd also make sewage pump a GFI receptacle
#7 Beige, I'd make the fridge a dedicated circuit
Assuming the smoke detectors are interconnected, I'd also put one in the storage room too. Are they also connected to upstairs smoke detectors?
The upstairs smoke detectors have been there for years and are not interconnected and are battery operated.
 
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Old 03-02-10, 11:53 AM
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I suggest the 20 amp bathroom BC supply bathroom outlets only.

To quote the Code "Ex; where the 20-amp BC supplies a single bathroom , outlets for others equiptment WITHIN the same bathroom shall be permitted --- "
 
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Old 03-02-10, 09:25 PM
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The smoke detectors are going to have to be upgraded and interconnected. You can not pass an inspection, especially one that involves adding a bedroom, without bringing the entire house up to code as far as the smoke alarms. There are also a handful of states that require CO detectors if there are any gas/oil burning appliances in the house.

Also, AFAIK, the smokes must be on a dedicated circuit. You have them sharing a circuit with two lights and an outlet. Also, every smoke alarm in the house must be on the SAME circuit.

In the game room and bedroom, make sure you run 3 conductor wire to the ceiling light boxes, and be sure to use Saf T Brace fan boxes in case you decide to add ceiling fans at a later time (skip this if the ceilings are too low ). Also, if it's not part of the plan already, since this is a game room, make sure you take into account the present or future need for an overhead light for the pool table and/or air hockey table.

You should not have lights and outlets on the same circuits. I believe NEC 2005 or 2008 prohibits this also (lighting circuits can't be more than 15A). That way a tripped breaker from plugging in the vacuum doesn't knock out lighting and cause accidents on the way to the breaker box. You should be fine putting the lighting for that small area all on one circuit. The bathroom outlet circuit also can not feed any other outlets.

I would also recommend adding one more circuit for outlets, and split it between the bedroom and game room. You normally want at least two different circuits serving the outlets in any given room to reduce the potential for running a circuit at maximum and tripping breakers.

One glaring item that I noticed unrelated to electrical though, is that according to the plan, there are no windows in the bedroom. You will not pass the building inspection without at least one. That is a fire safety issue. You must have a secondary escape from every bedroom in case of a fire. This also means that traditional 'basement windows' will not satisfy the requirement. If the wall is 44" or less below grade (I'm assuming it is not a fully underground basement due to the deck door out the back), then a standard double hung window is sufficient. If the wall is more than 44" below grade, then you will be required to install what's called an 'egress window' (a window whose entire frame can be unlatched and opened inward), with a well whose front extends no less than 36" away from the wall. If the well is more than 44" deep, then there is to be an escape ladder or molded steps in the well to facilitate climbing out. Without an escape window, this will not be a legal bedroom - you will not pass a building inspection, and it can not be listed in the bedroom count when you sell your house. However, I also noticed there is no door into the bedroom closet.. So maybe you overlooked the window too..
 
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Old 03-02-10, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
Y
The sewage pump alarm should be on circuit #6 yellow instead of the bathroom circuit in my opinion.
Only thing I have to say about this is if this wire or breaker failed/tripped then the alarm would also not function....
 
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Old 03-02-10, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JerseyMatt View Post
The smoke detectors are going to have to be upgraded and interconnected. You can not pass an inspection, especially one that involves adding a bedroom, without bringing the entire house up to code as far as the smoke alarms. There are also a handful of states that require CO detectors if there are any gas/oil burning appliances in the house.

Also, AFAIK, the smokes must be on a dedicated circuit. You have them sharing a circuit with two lights and an outlet. Also, every smoke alarm in the house must be on the SAME circuit.

In the game room and bedroom, make sure you run 3 conductor wire to the ceiling light boxes, and be sure to use Saf T Brace fan boxes in case you decide to add ceiling fans at a later time (skip this if the ceilings are too low ). Also, if it's not part of the plan already, since this is a game room, make sure you take into account the present or future need for an overhead light for the pool table and/or air hockey table.

You should not have lights and outlets on the same circuits. I believe NEC 2005 or 2008 prohibits this also (lighting circuits can't be more than 15A). That way a tripped breaker from plugging in the vacuum doesn't knock out lighting and cause accidents on the way to the breaker box. You should be fine putting the lighting for that small area all on one circuit. The bathroom outlet circuit also can not feed any other outlets.

I would also recommend adding one more circuit for outlets, and split it between the bedroom and game room. You normally want at least two different circuits serving the outlets in any given room to reduce the potential for running a circuit at maximum and tripping breakers.

One glaring item that I noticed unrelated to electrical though, is that according to the plan, there are no windows in the bedroom. You will not pass the building inspection without at least one. That is a fire safety issue. You must have a secondary escape from every bedroom in case of a fire. This also means that traditional 'basement windows' will not satisfy the requirement. If the wall is 44" or less below grade (I'm assuming it is not a fully underground basement due to the deck door out the back), then a standard double hung window is sufficient. If the wall is more than 44" below grade, then you will be required to install what's called an 'egress window' (a window whose entire frame can be unlatched and opened inward), with a well whose front extends no less than 36" away from the wall. If the well is more than 44" deep, then there is to be an escape ladder or molded steps in the well to facilitate climbing out. Without an escape window, this will not be a legal bedroom - you will not pass a building inspection, and it can not be listed in the bedroom count when you sell your house. However, I also noticed there is no door into the bedroom closet.. So maybe you overlooked the window too..
agreed on all points, except im not sure where the NEC prohibits lights and outlets on same circut, and where lights cant be on more than a 15amp circut. I just finished a 63 unit condo building and everything was run on 12/2 20 amp circuts.
 
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Old 03-02-10, 10:40 PM
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All the guys did make good point with the plans and let me add one more item as well I know you mention a luminaire in closet and I hope you are aware with the code about the luminaires in closet.

And I really suggest that you get a enclosed luminaire to be on safe side due ya never know what goes in the closet.

{ The NEC code do not allow bare indentscent bulbs in cloth closet for safety reason but flourscent bulbs { hardwire type not the screw in CFL's } can go either way unless your local codes have something else to say on it }

Oh yeah .,, the other thing is the outdoor receptale it have to be GFCI as well.

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 03-02-10, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricJoeNJ View Post
agreed on all points, except im not sure where the NEC prohibits lights and outlets on same circut, and where lights cant be on more than a 15amp circut. I just finished a 63 unit condo building and everything was run on 12/2 20 amp circuts.
Just double checked.. I was thinking of the small appliance and laundry circuits, which are required to be 20A with no lighting allowed. But lighting and outlets should be kept separate regardless.
 
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Old 03-03-10, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JerseyMatt View Post
Just double checked.. I was thinking of the small appliance and laundry circuits, which are required to be 20A with no lighting allowed. But lighting and outlets should be kept separate regardless.
Duly noted, i always try to do that wherever possible. I find that the more circuts the better, sometimes its overkill but my goal is to never have a tripped circut becuase of overload. Beer 4U2
 
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Old 03-03-10, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JerseyMatt View Post
Just double checked.. I was thinking of the small appliance and laundry circuits, which are required to be 20A with no lighting allowed. But lighting and outlets should be kept separate regardless.
This is a design consideration. There is no NEC prohibition against sharing receptacles and lighting on the same circuit with a few exceptions like kitchens and laundries. Basements are not one of the circuits prohibited from sharing.

Also the issue of a dedicated circuit for smoke alarms would be a local issue. The NEC only requires them to be on a AFCI protected circuit. I do know Delaware does require a dedicated circuit with a breaker lockout.
 
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Old 03-03-10, 11:18 AM
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Below is some quoted code information I refer to in this post:
The 2008 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code (OESC) is based on the 2008 National Electrical Code with Oregon amendments. Some significant changes include;
...
b) Amend Section 210.12(B) by adding the following: "Exception No. 3: Electrical outlets dedicated for the use of single station smoke alarms (interconnected or not), nurse call, or medical equipment shall not be required to have AFCI protection."

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
...
(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.
**************************************
Changes and comments (new drawing attached):
1. Drawing does have windows. 2 in game room, one legal egress window in bedroom.

2. Added recessed light and switch to bedroom closet.

3. Changed 12/2 wires to 12/3 for some ceiling lights for possible future modifications.

4. Put refridgerator on its own circuit.

5. Added a dedicated circuit for a possible microwave.

6. Changed game room lighting circuit from 14 to 12 guage.

7. Noted which outlets must be GFCI. Unfinished Area, Outdoor, Bathroom, Sewage pump.

8. Contemplated division of outlets and lights into various other configurations. Decided to leave as drawn unless some other better reason is presented.

9. Took the smoke detectors and unfinished area stuff off of the game room circuit and made it a separate circuit. Ran wire from last smoke detector to an accessible junction box in case I have to upgrade all of the battery operated smoke detectors in the house. (I don't think I should have to do this and will fight against the inspector on this item. I'm finishing the house and not goofing around with the rest of the house's electric). I don't want to put the smoke detectors on a dedicated circuit because it could encourage turning that breaker off.

10. Heaters are not on a AFCI breaker. (only required for 120v circuits).

11. Will make sure non-recessed ceiling lights have a beefy box incase something like ceiling fans are added in the future.

12. I'm not showing network, tv, telephone, and speaker wire runs in this diagram so it will not become too cluttered.
**************************************
Questions:
1. How should unused wires be terminated? For example, for some ceiling lights I am running 12/3 cable to them even though only 12/2 is only being used at this time. Also, how should the unused wires at the end of the smoke detector run in the junction box be terminated?

2. Does circuit #9 need to be on an AFCI breaker? I know smoke detectors don't, but I have other items on that circuit.

3. It is my understanding that putting a light in a closet is optional and not required under NEC 2008, correct?

4. Would it be advantageous to put all of the heaters on a dedicated 30A circuit?

Thanks for everyone's help so far and I'm looking forward to your additional comments.

 
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Old 03-03-10, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Majesticjess View Post
1. How should unused wires be terminated?
Wirenuts on the unused wires; blank cover on the j-box if no fixture is mounted.

2. Does circuit #9 need to be on an AFCI breaker? I know smoke detectors don't, but I have other items on that circuit.
Based on the Oregon code you posted, no.

3. It is my understanding that putting a light in a closet is optional and not required under NEC 2008, correct?
Optional, and restricted if installed. There are minimum distances from the fixture to storage shelves if the closet contains combustibles (cloths). Generally an enclosed fluorescent or CFL fixture is needed in a small closet. The light is mandatory if the closet is a mechanical closet with serviceable equipment like electric panels, motors, HVAC, etc.

4. Would it be advantageous to put all of the heaters on a dedicated 30A circuit?
Only to save space in the panel; sometimes to save wire depending on the layout of the circuit. Otherwise, no advantage or disadvantage.
 
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Old 03-03-10, 12:27 PM
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Changes look good. I completely missed the window in the bedroom.. I associated that area with something to do with the heater. I would also still highly recommend keeping the smoke alarms on a dedicated circuit (may be a local or state requirement, as pointed out). At the very least, do not have receptacles on the circuit. I can't agree with the argument that it will promote turning off the breaker, because you have to use detectors with a battery backup. Turning off the breaker will not silence the alarm or prevent it from going off.

You can probably comply with most codes by using smokes with a 'wireless interconnect'. First Alert and Kidde make them. You install a 'bridge unit' that is interconnected with the wired units, then install wireless units in NFPA required locations (inside each bedroom, outside each sleeping area, and at least one per floor). The wireless units will trigger the wired units and vice versa. This satisfies the interconnection requirement. However, if your codes specify AC Voltage units, then you will not be able to use them.

As for the extra outlet circuit, again, it is generally bad practice to wire all outlets in one room on one circuit. I would recommend adding the extra circuit to serve the outlets on the common wall between the bedroom and game room, and the outlets under the heater in the bedroom.
 
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Old 03-03-10, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Majesticjess View Post
Below is some quoted code information I refer to in this post:
The 2008 Oregon Electrical Specialty Code (OESC) is based on the 2008 National Electrical Code with Oregon amendments. Some significant changes include;
...
b) Amend Section 210.12(B) by adding the following: "Exception No. 3: Electrical outlets dedicated for the use of single station smoke alarms (interconnected or not), nurse call, or medical equipment shall not be required to have AFCI protection."

210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.
...
(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.
You are showing more than one smoke alarm. I do not think that meets the exception you listed for single station smoke alarms.


Originally Posted by Majesticjess View Post
Ran wire from last smoke detector to an accessible junction box in case I have to upgrade all of the battery operated smoke detectors in the house. (I don't think I should have to do this and will fight against the inspector on this item. I'm finishing the house and not goofing around with the rest of the house's electric).
While I agree you are not changing other parts of the house, other areas require the smoke alarms to be upgraded to todays Code requirements when permits are pulled. I also strongly feel that the hassle is worth the effort to protect your families life safety. Too many people are killed in fires because they either had no smoke alarms or the alarms did not work.

Originally Posted by Majesticjess View Post
2. Does circuit #9 need to be on an AFCI breaker? I know smoke detectors don't, but I have other items on that circuit.
See note above.

3. It is my understanding that putting a light in a closet is optional and not required under NEC 2008, correct? Correct.
 
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Old 03-03-10, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pcboss View Post
You are showing more than one smoke alarm. I do not think that meets the exception you listed for single station smoke alarms.
"Single Station" is the industry term for any smoke detector (battery or AC, whether interconnected or not) that is designed to operate independently, without being connected to a Fire Alarm Control Panel. An entire interconnect circuit of 12 AC/DC smokes is still referred to as Single Station. So yes, the exception applies.
 
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Old 03-04-10, 08:30 AM
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You can control the room temperatures with low-voltage thermostats . You will need a 2-pole 20 amp contactor with a 24-volt operating-coil for each heating-zone. The contactors are placed inside a metal enclosure. You can divide the heating load between two 20 amp ,220 volt Branch-Circuits.

This would eliminate 2-pole . 220 v "Line" thermostats. Also , there are many types of low-voltage "programable" thermostats available.
 
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Old 03-04-10, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by PATTBAA View Post
You can control the room temperatures with low-voltage thermostats . You will need a 2-pole 20 amp contactor with a 24-volt operating-coil for each heating-zone. The contactors are placed inside a metal enclosure. You can divide the heating load between two 20 amp ,220 volt Branch-Circuits.

This would eliminate 2-pole . 220 v "Line" thermostats. Also , there are many types of low-voltage "programable" thermostats available.
Thank you. I was unaware of this possibility.
 
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Old 11-21-10, 05:25 AM
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What software program are you using for the drawings?

I need a program that does a layout like the one in this thread please respond with any ideas, for a reasonable program (not that big of a compay) I am not building rocket ships just need a simple design software program.

Thank you
 
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Old 11-21-10, 06:04 AM
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Owenselectric, it may be better to PM the OP since the thread is earlier in the year and interest may have fallen off for the OP. NOT that they will respond, but it does look like a good program, huh?
 
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