My house support an additional 10,000 watts?
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My house support an additional 10,000 watts?
Hi all,
I am thinking of setting up a computer project in my unfinished basement. The project will consist of 100 Apple Mac Mini computers (Apple - Mac mini - Technical Specifications if you need more electrical specs). Each computer, as far as I can tell, is rated at 110W. So I would be drawing about 11,100 watts if my math is correct.
The computers would run 24x7 and thus would always be drawing at least 10,000 watts. Putting aside cooling or other topics, will my house support such an additional power draw? My house was built in 2001 and is about 4100 sq feet. We disconnected an outdoor hot tub this year and I was wondering/hoping if I could use the same breaker (meaning, does it supply enough power?)/junction box for my computer project. The old hot tub was wired to the junction box.
Yes, I am aware I will need to hire someone to come out and wire the basement properly but I am wondering if this is some kind of insane project that I should not be doing possibly due to code regulations (maybe homes are only allowed to draw so much power?). I've done some Googling on the internet and it seems several items in the home draw 3000-10,000 watts (central air, furnaces, large refrigerators, etc.).
Is this a type of job that someone could do within my house or would it require going outside and/or calling the electric company for more power or some kind of permit or other specialty request? According to my electric bill, I am using about 30 kWh per month in the winter.
Thanks so much in advance!
-Eric
p.s. I live in CT
I am thinking of setting up a computer project in my unfinished basement. The project will consist of 100 Apple Mac Mini computers (Apple - Mac mini - Technical Specifications if you need more electrical specs). Each computer, as far as I can tell, is rated at 110W. So I would be drawing about 11,100 watts if my math is correct.
The computers would run 24x7 and thus would always be drawing at least 10,000 watts. Putting aside cooling or other topics, will my house support such an additional power draw? My house was built in 2001 and is about 4100 sq feet. We disconnected an outdoor hot tub this year and I was wondering/hoping if I could use the same breaker (meaning, does it supply enough power?)/junction box for my computer project. The old hot tub was wired to the junction box.
Yes, I am aware I will need to hire someone to come out and wire the basement properly but I am wondering if this is some kind of insane project that I should not be doing possibly due to code regulations (maybe homes are only allowed to draw so much power?). I've done some Googling on the internet and it seems several items in the home draw 3000-10,000 watts (central air, furnaces, large refrigerators, etc.).
Is this a type of job that someone could do within my house or would it require going outside and/or calling the electric company for more power or some kind of permit or other specialty request? According to my electric bill, I am using about 30 kWh per month in the winter.
Thanks so much in advance!
-Eric
p.s. I live in CT
#2
It would depend on the size of your service but I would be willing to bet you will be ok. Your adding about 41 amps load on your house. You could do a load calculation and just add the 41amps to that and see what you come up with.
Just for your info: 10K watts or 10KW X 24hrs in a day = 240Kwh per day x 30 days = 7200Kwh per month x .10 per kwh = $720 added to your electrical bill.
Just for your info: 10K watts or 10KW X 24hrs in a day = 240Kwh per day x 30 days = 7200Kwh per month x .10 per kwh = $720 added to your electrical bill.
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Thanks Tolyn...yeah, I know the price will not be cheap. I am thinking of starting a non-profit in my home and thus a fundraiser will be needed to pay for the equipment and the monthly bills.
Thanks again!
-Eric
Thanks again!
-Eric
#4
Is this a computer lab/office type set-up? If so, you need to count the monitors too and the network gear, printers, and other misc stuff like projectors which can use a surprising amount of power. The upside though is that in this situation the computers rarely draw the maximum so you can plan for a lower wattage (web browsing and e-mail uses like 2% of the CPU).
If it's more like a compute-cluster where machines operate at full capacity, then I would strongly suggest considering purpose-built rack servers which get you a better return on CPU cycles per watt on your power bill.
You can't discount the cooling either. 10kW of heat is 10kW of additional load on your A/C. You can certainly reap some benefit from outdoor air circulation, but a 10kW equivalent heater will need some supplemental cooling.
If your existing hot tub circuit is the typical 50A four-wire, its maximum continuous capacity is 9,600W. (240V * 50A * 80%)
If it's more like a compute-cluster where machines operate at full capacity, then I would strongly suggest considering purpose-built rack servers which get you a better return on CPU cycles per watt on your power bill.
You can't discount the cooling either. 10kW of heat is 10kW of additional load on your A/C. You can certainly reap some benefit from outdoor air circulation, but a 10kW equivalent heater will need some supplemental cooling.
If your existing hot tub circuit is the typical 50A four-wire, its maximum continuous capacity is 9,600W. (240V * 50A * 80%)
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At 30 kWh per month even if you were paying 25 cents per kilowatt hour your monthly bill would only be around $7.50 a month. I live alone and I average 11 kWh per day.
#7
The typical hot tub uses a 50 amp single phase circuit. Your 100 computers @ 110 watts each totals to 11,000 continuous watts plus the peripherals that were mentioned. 11,000 watts translates to 45.8 amps. Since this load is continuous, you can't load the circuit or the 50 amp breaker over 80% of it's rated capacity which would be 40 amps. One of your questions was whether the existing hot tub circuit would support this load. In consideration of the above, it is my opinion that the existing hot tub circuit will not support your project and that you need to have a new circuit of no less than 60 amps installed. 70 or 80 amps would be better. I have no doubt that your home's service will support the load with the proper circuit and distribution to the computers..
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Is this a computer lab/office type set-up? If so, you need to count the monitors too and the network gear, printers, and other misc stuff like projectors which can use a surprising amount of power. The upside though is that in this situation the computers rarely draw the maximum so you can plan for a lower wattage (web browsing and e-mail uses like 2% of the CPU).
If it's more like a compute-cluster where machines operate at full capacity, then I would strongly suggest considering purpose-built rack servers which get you a better return on CPU cycles per watt on your power bill.
If it's more like a compute-cluster where machines operate at full capacity, then I would strongly suggest considering purpose-built rack servers which get you a better return on CPU cycles per watt on your power bill.
Rack machines really don't offer the benefits when you stack it all up (no pun intended) for my project...rack machines are much more expensive than a Mac Mini ($900), require rack hardware (unlike the Mini), require more specialty maintenance, and do not offer WIFI.
My Minis will likely run on 2 long pieces of wood about 15' each. There will only be 1-2 monitors for the entire project. The Minis will utilize WIFI and hit the home network a different times of the day to avoid network saturation. Likely I will plug every 5 machines into a $70 UPS which will provide 20 mins of backup electricity in case of an outtage...so I would need 20 of these devices, which yes, I need to calculate in.
It's not so much the electric bill I am worried about as my project will likely become a non-profit and will have fundraisers to pay for the electricity ($700-$1000 a month).
The cooling is a concern...I do have central air in the house so I could just easily open up the a/c vent in the basement that passes over the computer setup in the summertime (or all year if need be). In the winter, I would likely relocate the 100 machines to the attic where the temperature is much cooler (maybe 32-40 degrees Nov-April) to save on cooling...not to mention the attic's ceiling is 2x as tall as the unfinished basement's. Unfortunately the 2 windows in my basement do not open...but I could change that to let in cold air in the winter to save on a/c.
***********
-Eric
Last edited by GregH; 02-26-10 at 02:20 PM. Reason: We are more than happy to help you with your project but you can not promote it here.
#9
I'm not entirely sure the price is as different at you think. HP DL1** rack machines have quad core Xeon 5500 series CPUs for $1,250 whereas it takes two mac minis at $1,800 to get those cycles. The Xeon 5500 is quite a bit better chip for number crunching than the core 2 duo anyway.
My Minis will likely run on 2 long pieces of wood about 15' each.
In the winter, I would likely relocate the 100 machines to the attic where the temperature is much cooler
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I was thinking more along the lines of durability and duty cycle. The fans, power supplies and disks in rack machines are designed for 24/7 operation in dense environments, unlike commodity PC parts. Actually doing cluster computing you would probably want no hard disks and network boot Linux or a BSD for less maintenance, power and heat.
I'm not entirely sure the price is as different at you think. HP DL1** rack machines have quad core Xeon 5500 series CPUs for $1,250 whereas it takes two mac minis at $1,800 to get those cycles. The Xeon 5500 is quite a bit better chip for number crunching than the core 2 duo anyway.
I'm not entirely sure the price is as different at you think. HP DL1** rack machines have quad core Xeon 5500 series CPUs for $1,250 whereas it takes two mac minis at $1,800 to get those cycles. The Xeon 5500 is quite a bit better chip for number crunching than the core 2 duo anyway.
Also, I would likely swap out the Minis every 2 years...currently the Mini is not quad core but very likely it would be quad core by the September release...again, computer specs change all the time so I am trying to look at every aspect of this project since I will be the only one managing it...out of my home. Trying to find/build computers with 0 hard drives again just adds more time and energy for me to set up. The Mac Mini will be up and running in 10 minutes when I first power it on...then 5 mins later it will be crunching via BOINC.
Lastly, part of my project is to promote to people all over the world the ability to cure cancer with standard home machines. My project takes it to the extreme by running dedicated machines 24x7.
Last edited by ericelectric; 02-26-10 at 09:14 AM.
#12
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Some quick thoughts:
1) You would probably want a subpanel located close by to the computers. Do multiple runs of 20A circuits.
2) As heat rises, it is very likely the computers will make the 1st floor warm without the furnace running. This could definitely be an issue in the summer, but it might not be too bad. My basement stays fairly cool even on the hottest days.
3) Be sure to check with your insurance company that over $100,000 worth of kit is going to be covered. Also, if there are any water pipes nearby the computer area, be sure your insurance covers flooding caused by broken/damaged water pipes. It would be terrible to come home to water spraying right on the computers and destroying all of your hard work.
4) Does the software have a way to disable the Wi-Fi until needed? If not, the OS will likely pull updates and other information over the Wi-Fi connection. So while not all 100 computers will be continuously pulling huge amounts of info, there will be 100 connections, which very few home routers can support. I'd highly encourage using industrial network switches and wired connections.
5) Take lots of pictures!
1) You would probably want a subpanel located close by to the computers. Do multiple runs of 20A circuits.
2) As heat rises, it is very likely the computers will make the 1st floor warm without the furnace running. This could definitely be an issue in the summer, but it might not be too bad. My basement stays fairly cool even on the hottest days.
3) Be sure to check with your insurance company that over $100,000 worth of kit is going to be covered. Also, if there are any water pipes nearby the computer area, be sure your insurance covers flooding caused by broken/damaged water pipes. It would be terrible to come home to water spraying right on the computers and destroying all of your hard work.
4) Does the software have a way to disable the Wi-Fi until needed? If not, the OS will likely pull updates and other information over the Wi-Fi connection. So while not all 100 computers will be continuously pulling huge amounts of info, there will be 100 connections, which very few home routers can support. I'd highly encourage using industrial network switches and wired connections.
5) Take lots of pictures!
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Have you considered obtaining permits from the local inspectors who have the authority to enforce both local , state, and national fire and safety codes , and local zoning and property rules and regulations ?
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A few answers and comments:
1)I intend on doing this project the most legal and tax-careful way...meaning, if I need to start a NonProfit or similar, I will do that...this will then answer my questions about responsibility for insurance, permits, taxation, etc. This is the biggest area that I have no clue about and want to sit down with someone for 15-30 mins and just run through my plan. Again, I'm doing this out of the kindness of my heart but don't want to break any laws, pay excessive taxes, or violate any insurance contracts. I have estimated that the first year cost for this project below.
2)On a day like today with it being 32 outside, the basement is 57. Again, it is a very large basement. I am sure the computers will heat up the area pretty well and I would guess that the entire basement would (in the winter being 34 or below outside) never exceed 95 degrees. In the winter I can open 2 windows (1 is directly above where I would place the computers) to allow air in (as well as use some fans to move the air around). In the summer, my guess is the basement is likely 65 degrees while it is an average 82 degree day...but I don't know. The central air conditioning ducts run above where I would place the computers...therefore I could either a)create a new "zone" in the basement to have my own control of the basement or b)simply cut open the duct myself and when the 1st floor zone is on, some of the air would stay in the basement instead of going into the Dining Room. I know computers like to run cool and in a perfect world I'd like to keep the basement at ~67 too keep them nice and cool...but I believe computers can run well in temps in the mid 80s or even 90s (as I have done accidentally with 2 machines running for several days in a room at 91).
3)I am uncertain exactly how I can turn off the Mac OS' ability to automatically ping the mothership for updates...I am pretty positive it can be done.
4)Yes, having 100 computers attached to 1 home router may be a stretch. I am seeing if there is a way for me to have 2-5 computers act as collection points for all network traffic using the BOINC platform. In other distributed computing projects I've worked on, it was possible to do this. However, I would still need 100 computers on some kind of network. Therefore, I will need to architect this a bit and see if I should be making subnets or if there is an industrial $400 router I can buy that will promise to hold 400 computers.
5)The reverse duct booster is a great idea! I was thinking of something like that but have no clue on the terminology or how to do (I would likely pay someone or ask a buddy who's pretty familiar with it).
Here is my overall project price (always best to over estimate such as electric bill):
Initial costs:
--------------
100 computers @ $800 per computer = $80,000 + tax if applicable
Electrical work to ensure proper power is supplied: $2000
20 Uninteruptable Power Supplies @ $50 = $1000
Some kind of air conditioning/ventilation work: $2000
TOTAL=$85,000
Monthly costs:
--------------
Electricity: $1200/month ($14,400/year)
Internet Access: $75/month ($900/year)
TOTAL=$1275 per month
First year costs: $101,300
Second year costs: $15,300
Thanks again all for your tips!
-Eric
1)I intend on doing this project the most legal and tax-careful way...meaning, if I need to start a NonProfit or similar, I will do that...this will then answer my questions about responsibility for insurance, permits, taxation, etc. This is the biggest area that I have no clue about and want to sit down with someone for 15-30 mins and just run through my plan. Again, I'm doing this out of the kindness of my heart but don't want to break any laws, pay excessive taxes, or violate any insurance contracts. I have estimated that the first year cost for this project below.
2)On a day like today with it being 32 outside, the basement is 57. Again, it is a very large basement. I am sure the computers will heat up the area pretty well and I would guess that the entire basement would (in the winter being 34 or below outside) never exceed 95 degrees. In the winter I can open 2 windows (1 is directly above where I would place the computers) to allow air in (as well as use some fans to move the air around). In the summer, my guess is the basement is likely 65 degrees while it is an average 82 degree day...but I don't know. The central air conditioning ducts run above where I would place the computers...therefore I could either a)create a new "zone" in the basement to have my own control of the basement or b)simply cut open the duct myself and when the 1st floor zone is on, some of the air would stay in the basement instead of going into the Dining Room. I know computers like to run cool and in a perfect world I'd like to keep the basement at ~67 too keep them nice and cool...but I believe computers can run well in temps in the mid 80s or even 90s (as I have done accidentally with 2 machines running for several days in a room at 91).
3)I am uncertain exactly how I can turn off the Mac OS' ability to automatically ping the mothership for updates...I am pretty positive it can be done.
4)Yes, having 100 computers attached to 1 home router may be a stretch. I am seeing if there is a way for me to have 2-5 computers act as collection points for all network traffic using the BOINC platform. In other distributed computing projects I've worked on, it was possible to do this. However, I would still need 100 computers on some kind of network. Therefore, I will need to architect this a bit and see if I should be making subnets or if there is an industrial $400 router I can buy that will promise to hold 400 computers.
5)The reverse duct booster is a great idea! I was thinking of something like that but have no clue on the terminology or how to do (I would likely pay someone or ask a buddy who's pretty familiar with it).
Here is my overall project price (always best to over estimate such as electric bill):
Initial costs:
--------------
100 computers @ $800 per computer = $80,000 + tax if applicable
Electrical work to ensure proper power is supplied: $2000
20 Uninteruptable Power Supplies @ $50 = $1000
Some kind of air conditioning/ventilation work: $2000
TOTAL=$85,000
Monthly costs:
--------------
Electricity: $1200/month ($14,400/year)
Internet Access: $75/month ($900/year)
TOTAL=$1275 per month
First year costs: $101,300
Second year costs: $15,300
Thanks again all for your tips!
-Eric
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It's possible that the local building officials will not grant approval of your plan to establish this faciity in you residence. I suggest you consult with them before proceding any further with the design of the system.
Be prepared to accept many demands from the authorities for specific and detailed information on many aspects of this project are code-related.
Be prepared to accept many demands from the authorities for specific and detailed information on many aspects of this project are code-related.
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It's possible that the local building officials will not grant approval of your plan to establish this faciity in you residence. I suggest you consult with them before proceding any further with the design of the system.
Be prepared to accept many demands from the authorities for specific and detailed information on many aspects of this project are code-related.
Be prepared to accept many demands from the authorities for specific and detailed information on many aspects of this project are code-related.
1)the town about my project overall
2)someone to help me figure out if I should/can set up a Non Profit or some other organization (I will need to raise funds)
3)the town specifically about my energy usage as it will go from roughly $200/month in electricity to $1000 or more...want to make sure everyone's on the same page and that my project is not any kind of danger (heat, explosion, whatever) in their eyes.
The way I see it it, these are very small machines which will take up a small footprint of the unfinished (I stress unfinished as there are no rugs or walls to catch fire) basement and each draw only about as much power as a 100w lightbulb (and I would say the bulb gives off more heat than the Mini...you can't even touch a 100w bulb after it's been on for 15 mins). Each machine gives off a fair or small amount of heat (again, I have a Mini and it's never hot to the touch or the fan's cranking out steaming hot air) and of course having 100 of them will make the basement warm...that's common sense.
On a side note, even if town was against me with crazy remarks about heat dangers, what's to stop me from installing 50 instead of 100 and not telling anyone? My house alone has 4 computers that are on almost 24x7. Many friends and neighbors run 3-5 machines all the time. Yes, I know they are in different parts of the house but still...I'm taking very careful consideration of these machines as they are not normal desktops that draw 300-500watts each...nor are they using monitors and rarely using the hard drive...so electricity consumption is quite small in my project, per se.
-Eric
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Please allow me to refer you to two Code articles that may be relevant to your project-design----
Art 645 , Information Technology Equiptments----ex; "645.4 ; Special requirements for ITE room ----- "
Art 518 . Assembly Occupancies
Art 645 , Information Technology Equiptments----ex; "645.4 ; Special requirements for ITE room ----- "
Art 518 . Assembly Occupancies
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11,000 watts is 37,543 BTU's or over three tons of A/C required for cooling. That's a few thousand right there, a typical 3 ton installation will be $6,000-8,000. As far as heat, all of the power the machines consume will be heat when the smoke settles.
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Get a Kill A Watt Electricity Load Meter and Monitor and plug a computer into it and see exactly how much wattage the system is using. For example:
Amazon.com: P3 International P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor: Electronics
Amazon.com: P3 International P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor: Electronics