Moving existing outlets to empty breaker?

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  #41  
Old 04-04-10, 03:22 PM
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I can understand what you mean Silver however I do work in alot of commercal / industrail and I do have strict policy on live works and I am sure many other electricians will speak up in here and if can turn off without affect the area then it is not a issue.

Many places they will have a down time so use that time period to do the proper work.

For resdentail it is automatique shut down when you do more than simple troubleshooting.

and Sliver., if you did bring up that subject in a professeal electrician fourm you will get a roit act no question asked.

as far for taping the wirenuts there are very limited spots I will use that useally found in motour peckerhead { motour junction box } or area where will get high viberations then I will use the Polaris connectors I know it will cost more but it worth it.

Merci,Marc
 
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  #42  
Old 04-04-10, 03:42 PM
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This is true.., though like in Service you cant kill a entire circuit for a simple switch and I know many service guys that work live all the time that are PRO. I hear you though. I know it all pays the same hot or off.. I was just saying...

P.S I also do commercial and industrial and I am very aware of the strictness and lock out tag out stuff. Though you cant tell me you have not done this because you don't want to walk 5 miles to the end of the building and flip the breaker to do a simple 2 sec installation.... I hear you , im just saying..
 
  #43  
Old 04-04-10, 07:04 PM
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Just for the record I have been known to wrap a device with tape before installing it into the box but this is only due to me wiring it hot, something I never advise a DIYer to do. I, however, never wrap wire nuts with tape.

@ LadyElan - I feel sorry for the situation you are in. As a renter you have rights but if you make too big of a stink the hassle might not be worth it. I suggest looking for a new place as soon as you can. The place you are in sounds like a health/life risk not to mention possibility of loosing all you belongings. Good luck!
 
  #44  
Old 04-04-10, 08:47 PM
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Ahh so that's why all that tape is on there. He never did shut off the circuit. The maintenance guy told me that bootleg ground is legal in 2 states so it's not THAT bad. (I'm having a hard time believing that though).

I'm not even on a lease so you're right, I don't want to make a big fuss. If GFCI plugs would be safer to use until I can move, then I can wait to work on my computers. Now at least I know to take a look at the plugs before I move somewhere to see if they're 2 or 3 prong, and ask the landlord about the wiring Thanks!
 
  #45  
Old 04-04-10, 09:37 PM
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Ahh so that's why all that tape is on there. He never did shut off the circuit. The maintenance guy told me that bootleg ground is legal in 2 states so it's not THAT bad. (I'm having a hard time believing that though).
Not necessarily. Some people due it because they feel its necessary when in reality its not the case. Though in your case that box looks metal and electrical tape in my opinion is not a horrible idea because that tape could prevent a arch to that metal box. Electricity will jump.

Ok enough with the electric tape. Im 100% certain this is a "jack of all trades" handy man doing this work as most landlords due, not a hire licensed electrician due to cut cost (the tarp to fix the roof confirms this for me).. The GFCI plug is a good idea and they also make a 2 prong to 3 prong converter that screws on in which you could use then remove when you move out. I would also keep the computer on a surge protector.

I also rent my house and its a old Victorian Style house with old wire (12/2 It has no ground) and at one point in time someone replaced all the 2 prongs with the new 3 prong receptacle. Are they grounded nope.. Should they be yes.. have i had any problems with them? not a 1 in 2 years of living here. The GFIs in my kitchen and bathrooms are grounded though with new 12/3 grounded circuits ran to them in a old school FUSE PANEL (Murray)(Which is in excellent condition I must say! A grounding bar was added to it at some point in time so it is grounded and bonded but only to the GFCIS and main (Actually it should of has a complete service upgrade when that was done! but it was not). What I am getting at (sorry for the novel,) is basically my land lord and yours must be related! It never got inspected because he has all his goons do the work. I would press the issue if I was not Laid off and my wife was not pregnant... But I need this place and it is what it is.

I guess what I am getting at is the receptacle thing in reality really is not a life threatening issue for me and I make due just fine. I got my comp on a serge protector and my TV/receiver and that's it. Should it be grounded yes, would it be better if it was up to code yes, can I get buy without it? YUP!! I have power I cant complain to much! Good luck to you Beer 4U2
 
  #46  
Old 04-04-10, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyElan View Post
Ahh so that's why all that tape is on there. He never did shut off the circuit. The maintenance guy told me that bootleg ground is legal in 2 states so it's not THAT bad. (I'm having a hard time believing that though).

Let me say just one word what the maintenaice guy did told ya I will say it once "C'est des conneries " { you will have to goggle this word }

That maintenaice guy is really running his gum full time and he do not know the code at all I have see more crazy than what you have describing.

BTW all the states do not allow bootleg ground and it is complety illegal in USA and the samething in France it illegal as well.

Merci,Marc
 
  #47  
Old 04-04-10, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTattoo View Post
Try sticking a hot switch or receptacle back into metal box with out tapping off the terminals and see what happens! (yes i know the circuit should be off, but in real life we don't always have this luxury..)
It is not a luxury to comply with OSHA laws. There are few exceptions to the live work law and replacing a switch or receptacle in a house is most certainly not one of them. Have I done it, yes. That doesn't make it right, and I would not try to make an employee do it. Even if it were not an OSHA violation it is still an unnecessary danger to install the device while it is live.

Originally Posted by SilverTattoo View Post
though like in Service you cant kill a entire circuit for a simple switch and I know many service guys that work live all the time that are PRO. I hear you though. I know it all pays the same hot or off.. I was just saying...
Nope, you certainly can shut down the circuit. I hope no one even is hurt and tries to justify this to the investigator or in a court room. Marc has already covered the proper procedure regarding a scheduled shutdown.
 
  #48  
Old 04-04-10, 10:34 PM
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lol! Using context clues I came to the conclusion it translates to bull$hiot!! Kidding... I googled it...Beer 4U2
 
  #49  
Old 04-04-10, 10:39 PM
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It is not a luxury to comply with OSHA laws. There are few exceptions to the live work law and replacing a switch or receptacle in a house is most certainly not one of them. Have I done it, yes. That doesn't make it right, and I would not try to make an employee do it. Even if it were not an OSHA violation it is still an unnecessary danger to install the device while it is live.
And I totally agree with you! I never said it was right! I knew it was wrong when I did/do it. I was just saying.. And yes it does come up especially in service work!! Are you really feeding my OSHA violations?? You wear your safty googles when u use a powder gun or use a sawzall?? Is your lanyourd and harness always attached when in that boom lift? Come on now.. dont make me the "bad guy" here..
 
  #50  
Old 04-04-10, 11:11 PM
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I am not trying to paint anyone as a bad person. I am basing my statements on what is permissable live work. Nothing related to this job would meet the exceptions.

Also with this being a DIY forum, not everyone has received the level of training as a professional or understands the danger associated with live work. Simply put, there is no reason for a homeowner or tradesperson, in a residential setting, to need to do maintanence work live after the troubleshooting is over.

Yes, I do wear safety glasses. I remember all to well the day I could have lost seeing my kids playing due to a stupid mistake. Not much call for a boom, but would wear fall protection if I did.
 
  #51  
Old 04-04-10, 11:25 PM
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And again I agree with you. Though tape on a receptacle doesn't prove the guy worked on it hot either.. And for the record I do not advise or condone working on ANY energized,LIVE,HOT circuits, devices, etc.
 
  #52  
Old 04-04-10, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTattoo View Post
And again I agree with you. Though tape on a receptacle doesn't prove the guy worked on it hot either.. And for the record I do not advise or condone working on ANY energized,LIVE,HOT circuits, devices, etc.
Thank you.

Here is a quote of part of the permissable live work rule.

1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.

Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.

Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section
 
  #53  
Old 04-04-10, 11:43 PM
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Ok I get it.. Are you trying to sale me a book you wrote on it or something? Jesus! Though I still have my ways and that is just how it is! Im not telling anyone else to follow what I choose to do.
Thanks
Night
 
  #54  
Old 04-15-10, 10:59 AM
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Just thought I'd post the oh so professionally done grounded outlet that the guy did today. I hope my cats don't try to play with it.

 
  #55  
Old 04-15-10, 12:45 PM
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And which third world country is this apartment in? He's not even in the ballpark with that. Once you have another apartment lined up I'd call the city electrical inspector and let him know what is going on. Heaven knows what other hazards has been wrought by this guy.
 
  #56  
Old 04-15-10, 01:15 PM
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I found where one of the ground wires he put in goes....is this normal?



It's attached to the water pipe that's going to the outside.
 
  #57  
Old 04-15-10, 01:21 PM
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At least that part's right...
 
  #58  
Old 04-15-10, 02:46 PM
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Idon't see the main ground so is it within 5" of the main ground are is that just the jumper for the water meter? The black wire seems to be the water meter remote reader cable.
 
  #59  
Old 04-15-10, 03:37 PM
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Yep, the black wire is for the water meter. What does the main ground look like? Is it supposed to be by the breaker box? The wire here is coming down from the basement ceiling.

 
  #60  
Old 04-15-10, 04:45 PM
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Yes, the ground wire comes from the main box and IIRC code said add-on ground must be connected within 5' of the main ground. But let the pros weigh in on that.
 
  #61  
Old 04-15-10, 05:02 PM
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Oh ok....the breaker box is all the way on the opposite end of the basement from the water meter, 30 feet maybe. Someone's coming tomorrow to put that ground wire in the wall whew!
 
  #62  
Old 04-15-10, 08:14 PM
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although this is done wrong its not directly a hazard...your cat wont get shocked chewing on a ground... the ground are better than not having any ground and WAY better than those bootleg grounds...
 
  #63  
Old 04-16-10, 09:19 PM
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Thanks to everyone who is participating in this thread. it is a learning experience for those of us who has no "field" experience. Sometimes you can learn from others mistakes.

I would be scared for my life in this house. I sure hope the smoke/fire detectors are the "old fashioned" battery powered type. If they are AC typen then there is no telling if they are installed correctly.

To the OP: I would check the status of the smoke/fire alarms just to be safe. i dont want to scare you but safety first.
 
  #64  
Old 04-18-10, 03:25 PM
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There are no smoke detectors in here I have to buy some.
 
  #65  
Old 04-18-10, 03:43 PM
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Before you purchase any smoke detectors make a telephone call to whatever agency oversees the landlord-tenant laws in your area. In my area the landlord is required to furnish and install smoke detectors but the tenant is required to change the batteries.
 
  #66  
Old 04-18-10, 04:31 PM
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Just found out the fire department has a program where they come out and install free smoke alarms. I think I'll go that route, seems safer than getting the landlord to try to do it
 
  #67  
Old 04-19-10, 08:34 PM
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While you have the fireman in the appt., maybe you could "casually" ask him his opinion on your electrical issue.

Maybe he will be able to push the right buttons without implicating you. Most firemen know the inspectors and visa versa. It could be an "easy out" for you to get the attention you deserve without getting evicted.
 
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