Installing Kitchen Island Outlet

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Old 04-18-10, 06:46 PM
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Installing Kitchen Island Outlet

I'm installing GFCI outlets in the walls of the kitchen island. I plan to put them horizontally on the outer walls of the island. The outer wall is 3/4 wood with 1/4" bead board covering it. I went to HD and the guy suggested to get the single gang shallow (2" deep) metal electrical box with the ears on it. I wanted a shallow box so it would not interfere with the interior cabinet space too much. First problem is that the GFCI outlet does not fit in the box with the wire connector attached. The 2nd problem is that the holes for the ears are really close to the edge of the opening that I cut for the box. I'm assuming to install a box with ears you just screw them in from the front. Is this correct? Is there a different box that would work better for this application? I've used the plastic "old work" boxes before that clamp to the back of sheet rock. I was thinking of using these on the island, but I thought they went to deep inside the island and would interfere with cabinet storage. Please help
 
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Old 04-18-10, 07:39 PM
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Do you have room for a 4x4 with mounting ears? You can get it in a 1-1/2" depth and use a 1" mud ring, which you may not find at the big orange box.

You would have to get the wiring all set up, except the receptacle, screw the mud ring on tight, and then mount the ears to whatever framing you rig up. You might also have to hollow out a couple of small spots for the mud ring screw heads so the face of the ring will be flush against the inside of the cabinet surface.
 
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Old 04-19-10, 05:29 AM
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Also consider the Carlon B117RSW or something similar. Have you computed your box fill? If so your GFCI should fit any acceptable box but with 12 AWG you sometimes have to be very meticulous to get things positioned properly.

I am assuming you're using Romex (NM-B) but if space allows in the cabinet you could use EMT and stranded conductors, which are easier to manipulate in tight spaces.

I should have mentioned this earlier: If you are able to put the GFCI(s) somewhere upstream and wire your island receps to the load side of the GFCI(s), that would be the easiest.
 
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Old 04-19-10, 06:19 AM
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I always try to lay out the boxes so that I can use a deeper box and not hit the cabinet framing. Arg also had a good idea about the 4 sq. box.
 
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Old 04-21-10, 07:45 AM
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Yes, I'm using 12/2 Romex. I have a junction box under the island (in the basement) which I'll split to feed both wall sides of the island. If I go deeper than 2" with a box I'll come really close to hitting the sliding cabinet drawer rails on the inside of the island.

I do have room for a 4x4 box with the mud ring, but I'm not sure how I would install that so the mud ring would be flush with the finished island wall.

I will try the Carlon B117RSW box, which hopefully could accommodate the 1" thickness of the wall (3/4" wood + 1/4" bead board).
 
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Old 04-21-10, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jaspers95 View Post

I do have room for a 4x4 box with the mud ring, but I'm not sure how I would install that so the mud ring would be flush with the finished island wall.

I will try the Carlon B117RSW box, which hopefully could accommodate the 1" thickness of the wall (3/4" wood + 1/4" bead board).
Sorry I forgot about the cabinet wall thickness when suggesting the Carlon. You're going to have to notch or route the cabinet face and probably bevel the inside material on the side where the box would angle into position.

If you have room for a 4x4, I don't understand the issue with making the mud ring flush with the finished wall. You would need to go to an electrical supply house and get a 4x4 mud ring, one gang (or two if you want some room for expansion), raised 1", like this one: 4" Square 1" Raised One Gang Device Ring-52C15.
 
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Old 04-21-10, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jaspers95 View Post
Yes, I'm using 12/2 Romex. I have a junction box under the island (in the basement) which I'll split to feed both wall sides of the island. If I go deeper than 2" with a box I'll come really close to hitting the sliding cabinet drawer rails on the inside of the island.

I do have room for a 4x4 box with the mud ring, but I'm not sure how I would install that so the mud ring would be flush with the finished island wall.

I will try the Carlon B117RSW box, which hopefully could accommodate the 1" thickness of the wall (3/4" wood + 1/4" bead board).
Back to what Arg said earlier, if your mounting a junction box in the basement, install the GFI in the basement.
 
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Old 04-21-10, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricJoeNJ View Post
Back to what Arg said earlier, if your mounting a junction box in the basement, install the GFI in the basement.
I don't think you can do this and remain in compliance with the NEC. The requirements for the small appliance circuits can only be in dining, kitchens, and pantries. A receptacle in the basement would violate this. You could install a dead-front GFI. It just might not be convenient should it trip, especially if you don't remember where it is.
 
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Old 04-21-10, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pcboss View Post
I don't think you can do this and remain in compliance with the NEC. The requirements for the small appliance circuits can only be in dining, kitchens, and pantries. A receptacle in the basement would violate this. You could install a dead-front GFI. It just might not be convenient should it trip, especially if you don't remember where it is.
Your absolutly correct yes you would need to use a dead front GFI. now its just a matter of convenience, do you want to have to go into the basement if the GFI trips.
 
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Old 04-22-10, 09:01 AM
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I had a similar issue when installing my kitchen island last year. I actually installed wiremold right under the countertop overhang since I didn't want receptacles in the nice finished island side panels.

For GFI protection, the inspector didn't like the idea of a dead-front GFI in the basement (or inside the island). He wanted the GFI reset button easily accessible. But he did suggest that I instead use a GFI breaker in the main panel, which is what I did. $35 for a GFI breaker wasn't cheap, but it works and it was approved. Might be an idea.
 
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Old 04-22-10, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by demolition_man View Post
I had a similar issue when installing my kitchen island last year. I actually installed wiremold right under the countertop overhang since I didn't want receptacles in the nice finished island side panels.

For GFI protection, the inspector didn't like the idea of a dead-front GFI in the basement (or inside the island). He wanted the GFI reset button easily accessible. But he did suggest that I instead use a GFI breaker in the main panel, which is what I did. $35 for a GFI breaker wasn't cheap, but it works and it was approved. Might be an idea.
Perfect example of why some inspectors can be absolute morons. What the heck is the difference between a dead front GFI inside the island which is pretty acccesbile, or a GFI breaker in a panel thats probably not even close to the kitchen. ???? Im sorry, but some inspectors just rub me the wrong way.
 

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Old 04-22-10, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by demolition_man View Post
I had a similar issue when installing my kitchen island last year. I actually installed wiremold right under the countertop overhang since I didn't want receptacles in the nice finished island side panels.

For GFI protection, the inspector didn't like the idea of a dead-front GFI in the basement (or inside the island). He wanted the GFI reset button easily accessible. But he did suggest that I instead use a GFI breaker in the main panel, which is what I did. $35 for a GFI breaker wasn't cheap, but it works and it was approved. Might be an idea.
Yes, some inspectors like to re-engineer every job regardless of whether the installed product is code compliant or not. There are many times where there is more than one way to do a job and stay in compliance with the NEC.
 
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Old 04-22-10, 10:39 PM
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I just don't want to get off track here for a moment but I will address to the OP {Jaspers} real quick.,

Was this island is afterthought during kitchen remodel or it was from begain in the remodel time?

If this was afterthought it can get little tricky due the codes will address the specfic size of island overhang.

Anyway this what I done with new kitchen or major remodel in Kitchen area if they going to install the island there is two way I run the RCD { GFCI } it will be standard RCD receptale at the island location or have RCD on the kitchen wall and run that circuit to the island only and that way you can use the standard recetaple.

Now for the inspectors they have final call the way they want to order meet the codes { sometime I just don't like it and I just politely talk to them and explain the situation sometime they will work into the situauton and some don't }

Merci,Marc
 
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Old 04-23-10, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricJoeNJ View Post
Perfect example of why some inspectors can be absolute morons. What the heck is the difference between a dead front GFI inside the island which is pretty acccesbile, or a GFI breaker in a panel thats probably not even close to the kitchen. ???? Im sorry, but some inspectors just rub me the wrong way.
I agree with you, but on the other hand, we've probably all had the experience of a friend or relative who said "The outside/bathroom/(half the) kitchen outlets haven't worked since we moved in". So you go snooping around and find the GFCI in the powder room that is never used, or on the basement ceiling, that controls those outlets. I suspect some inspectors are interested not just in code compliance, but idiot-proofing, and that bar can be ridiculously high.
 
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