help installing a ceiling fan


  #41  
Old 09-07-10, 09:20 PM
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I'm still a bit confused. If one were to take a wire from A and short it to B, the result would be twice as much current flow than if shorting A to neutral or B to neutral wouldn't it?
 
  #42  
Old 09-07-10, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTattoo
And if you ran that to a switch, you are in the wrong field buddy because to is totally shotty and crazy!
..says the guy who thinks there would be 240v between two circuits on the same leg but an AB connection would be 'just 120v but with heavy load'..

Yeah, you didn't think anyone saw that before you deleted it, did you?
 
  #43  
Old 09-07-10, 09:27 PM
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That's why the breakers serving both sides MUST be handle tied
U are referencing a 2 pole breaker correct? Which would be leg A and B. So its its a MUST to handle tie why would BB or AA be acceptable as you stated below?

lol its late... i caught it is all that matters lol.
 
  #44  
Old 09-07-10, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mossman
I'm still a bit confused. If one were to take a wire from A and short it to B, the result would be twice as much current flow than if shorting A to neutral or B to neutral wouldn't it?
Short circuits don't really follow Ohm's law. Yes, it would most likely be a bigger fireworks display, but the breaker trips instantly either way. The high current would only be present for a few nanoseconds before the breaker tripped, so it's not really something you measure or account for.

You are most likely to touch one terminal plus ground, which would give you a 120v jolt no matter which leg you touch. If you were unlucky enough to touch both screws simultaneously, your body would be conducting 240v to ground, which is twice as likely to be lethal.
 
  #45  
Old 09-07-10, 09:35 PM
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body would be conducting 240v to ground, which is twice as likely to be lethal.
wrong... 120v is more dangerous the 240v. Single phase grabs you and want let go. Just like 277 single phase is bad. 240v will hurt like hell but, it will let go.
 
  #46  
Old 09-07-10, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTattoo
U are referencing a 2 pole breaker correct? Which would be leg A and B. So its its a MUST to handle tie why would BB or AA be acceptable as you stated below?

lol its late... i caught it is all that matters lol.
So did I and I quoted it, so everyone can see you don't know what you're talking about.

I didn't state anything to do with AA or BB would be acceptable. I said they must be fed with a MWBC (which requires adjacent breakers (handle tied in all cases required as of NEC2008) or two separate circuits with adjacent handle tied breakers. I only mentioned them on the same leg because I was making the point that it has no impact on the rating of the switch, since they are two completely independent switches with the tab broken. Whether it was both legs of a MWBC or two separate circuits with separate neutrals, it makes no difference, because it is two separate switches rated at 120v.

TECHNICALLY, if the two circuits were fed with individual cables with separate neutrals (NOT MWBC), they could be landed on both terminals of the same tandem breaker, which would put both terminals of the switch on the same leg. Depending on which code the AHJ is going by and the mood the inspector is in, this MIGHT be acceptable using a piece of bent #12 or a 4/40 screw and a couple nuts as a tie. However, NEC2005 requires handle ties to be UL listed and there are no listed ties for tandems in the same space. I would not risk getting red-tagged for something that dumb, so I would only put it in as a MWBC.
 

Last edited by JerseyMatt; 09-07-10 at 11:17 PM.
  #47  
Old 09-07-10, 09:39 PM
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yea thats it. Its proves im human and its late. Im not on here to prove anything to anyone like you are trying to do.

I have wasted enough time with you. Ill see you around in the post that you never have any logical answers to.
 
  #48  
Old 09-07-10, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverTattoo
wrong... 120v is more dangerous the 240v. Single phase grabs you and want let go. Just like 277 single phase is bad. 240v will hurt like hell but, it will let go.
You really don't understand how this post makes you look like. Really. And it is ALL single phase. Get that through your head too.

Originally Posted by SilverTattoo
yea thats it. Its proves im human and its late. Im not on here to prove anything to anyone like you are trying to do.

I have wasted enough time with you. Ill see you around in the post that you never have any logical answers to.
The only one with wrong/illogical answers is you. You have been repeatedly proven wrong but you are too stubborn to realize it. The only thing you have proven here is that you are a liability because you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 09-08-10 at 08:36 AM. Reason: derogatory comment
  #49  
Old 09-07-10, 09:49 PM
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277/480 is 3 phase. 277 is one(1) phase of a 3 phase system.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 09-08-10 at 05:39 AM. Reason: removed offensive words
  #50  
Old 09-07-10, 10:06 PM
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Yes. I know. 277 is the phase to neutral.. So it is otherwise known as....






single phase.
 
  #51  
Old 09-08-10, 03:32 AM
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I believe Hunter provides a remote holder with longer plate screws to insert over the switch, which holds it in an "on" position, while providing a convenient remote storage device. The holder may even be generic, so check at the fan store to see if it is available.
 
  #52  
Old 09-08-10, 08:07 AM
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thank appreciate that. >>..........>>>>
 

Last edited by SilverTattoo; 09-08-10 at 10:36 AM. Reason: removed offensive words
  #53  
Old 09-08-10, 10:22 AM
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If you were unlucky enough to touch both screws simultaneously, your body would be conducting 240v to ground, which is twice as likely to be lethal.
.

Exactly the answer I was looking for. I didn't mean to imply that it was likely, I was simply making an observation. Thanks. However, it wouldn't be to ground right? You would essentially be completing a path from the "top" of the transformer winding to the "bottom", no ground involved. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

wrong... 120v is more dangerous the 240v. Single phase grabs you and want let go. Just like 277 single phase is bad. 240v will hurt like hell but, it will let go.
Increase in voltage equals an increased potential for more current flow, thus it is more lethal. I'm strictly speaking about electrical theory, not any specific application.
 

Last edited by mossman; 09-08-10 at 10:43 AM.
  #54  
Old 09-08-10, 10:49 AM
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Increase in voltage equals an increased potential for more current flow, thus it is more lethal. I'm strictly speaking about electrical theory, not any specific application.
In real life what I told you is the truth. Single phase is the most lethal unless your up on the powerlines or hit a main bus, etc. 120V kills more people than any other voltage out there. 277V is 120 on steroids. It will grab you and you will pray to god the whole time it will let go of you.

P.S. Also its really the amperage that does the damage, not the voltage. You are confused on that part.
 
  #55  
Old 09-08-10, 10:56 AM
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120V kills more people than any other voltage out there. 277V is 120 on steroids. It will grab you and you will pray to god the whole time it will let go of you.
If 120V is more lethal than 277V, then why would you say 277 is 120 on steroids? Doesn't add up. And yes, I understand that current is what kills, but the more voltage you have (electrical "pressure") then more current will result from it for a given load. And I would venture to say that 120V kills more people because it is more common to encounter 120V in the home, not because 120 is more lethal. What you're basically saying is that if you had a choice to grab a wire with 277 or one with 120, you would grab the 277. Think about it.
 
  #56  
Old 09-08-10, 11:22 AM
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Because 120V is more common due to a residential setting is fed 120/240.. Your 277/480 is commercial and its not as likely for some DIYer to mess with it.

What you're basically saying is that if you had a choice to grab a wire with 277 or one with 120, you would grab the 277. Think about it.
No i am not. It depends on how much of a load is on it. And it is more voltage so it will hurt more of course. Im not the best at explaining things man try to find someone else to explain it for you. I have to run. Sorry.
 
  #57  
Old 09-08-10, 11:32 AM
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I'm not asking for an explanation, those were rhetorical questions--ones that you should ask yourself. I'm trying to make a point and you keep contradicting yourself. You said 120 is more lethal than 277--not true. More fatal--perhaps--for the very reason I said--it is more common in the household and therefore results in more fatalities.
 
  #58  
Old 09-08-10, 12:17 PM
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I get it man. You have no point to make because I already understand. You are the one asking the questions not me.

120 FATAL(KILLS) i said! I did not write the statistics. Fatal and lethal are the same thing so rephrase your question to someone else.


What are you trying to prove anyway? What color is circuit #24 on a 277/480V system since you know it all? What color would that circuit be on a 120/208 service? How bout that. Running circuits by color on a 120/208
circuit #
3
5
8
12

give me the color of each branch circuit. Lets see what you know
 
  #59  
Old 09-08-10, 01:01 PM
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I don't know because I'm not an electrician and therefore do not need to know what the colors are, but if I was an electrician and needed to know, I sure as hell would. I do know that I know a hell of a lot more than you about electrical and electronics theory in general. And most if not all questions directed towards you were rhetorical. I stated my post directed to JerseyMatt about the 240V being more of a shock hazard in the form of a question for the sake of argument. I was 99.9% that I knew the answer, but wasn't getting the answer I was looking for, which I eventually did. I don't think any would disagree that you evidently don't know what you're talking about and seem to be getting your information from Google.3

Here's a riddle for you: Using ohm's law, what happens to I when V is increased considering a fixed load? And since you want to talk about 3-phase power, how is three phase power created and how does the POCO get 120V to a residence? Again, I know the answers to these questions. These are for you to answer for yourself.
 

Last edited by mossman; 09-08-10 at 01:20 PM.
  #60  
Old 09-08-10, 01:27 PM
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There is no mandated color code for circuits. I could run purple, orange and black for 277/480. There are conventions but that does not mean it is required.
 
  #61  
Old 09-08-10, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pcboss
There is no mandated color code for circuits. I could run purple, orange and black for 277/480. There are conventions but that does not mean it is required.
IIRC, the only mandated phase color is orange on the high leg of a 120/240Δ. Other than that, it's just the 'commonly accepted' color code(s) - Black-Red-Blue, Brown-Orange-Yellow(Δ), and Brown-Purple-Yellow (Y). But you ARE required to be consistent throughout. If phase A is purple, you must use purple for phase A throughout the entire installation. You can't change to black.
 
  #62  
Old 09-08-10, 01:44 PM
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Reading books, yes, that is how you learn things. And I never claimed to know everything. You may "make it work" at the end of the day, but that doesn't mean it was done properly. And by the sound of things, more times than not it probably wasn't. Electricity is nothing to mess around with, and you could very well be contributing to the 120V fatality statistic. I know I wouldn't want you working on my house. Not here to make enemies or belittle anyone, but you need to admit/realize when you are wrong.

Fatal and lethal are the same thing so rephrase your question to someone else.
Lethal and fatal are not the same. More lethal means more inclined to cause death, fatal means death occured. Therefore, 240V is more lethal than 120V, and accorinding to your statistic, 120V causes more fatalities.
 

Last edited by mossman; 09-08-10 at 02:26 PM.
  #63  
Old 09-08-10, 07:11 PM
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Just want to head up anymore off topic discussion will end up either lock up or delete it we do not want to scare any more OP's out of the forum and it almost out of the hand on this matter so we will watch this section pretty close.

If that discussion is related to the OP's issue then stick to it.

Merci.
Marc
 
 

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