GFCI Breaker problem


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Old 10-03-10, 05:37 PM
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GFCI Breaker problem

I own a very old 3 unit apartment building and well the wiring is in rough shape.
I'm trying to fix some of the problems but I'm having a hard time.

Since the wiring is old, many of the circuits are missing ground wires. This makes it impossible to install GFCI receptacles in the washrooms and the kitchens.

I installed GFCI breakers to protect the washroom and kitchen circuits for the 2 apartments upstairs.
I tried to do the same with the apartment downstairs but as soon as I plug a device in a receptacle or turn a light on the GFCI breaker instantly trips.
I thought that the GFCI breaker might be defective so I tried another one and the same problem occurs.

The problem circuit has 4 lights and 3 receptacles in total. One light and receptacle near the sink in the kitchen, one light and receptacle in the washroom, one receptacle and light in the side porch, and one outside light.

I'm really at a lost that the GFCI breakers work in the apartments upstairs but not in the one downstairs.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated 

Thank you in advance

Daniel
 

Last edited by pcboss; 10-04-10 at 07:00 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-03-10, 07:15 PM
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Since the wiring is old, many of the circuits are missing ground wires. This makes it impossible to install GFCI receptacles in the washrooms and the kitchens.
A GFCI doesn't require a ground. If fact code suggests its use on older wiring where no ground is present to increase safety.
I installed GFCI breakers to protect the washroom and kitchen circuits for the 2 apartments upstairs.
I tried to do the same with the apartment downstairs but as soon as I plug a device in a receptacle or turn a light on the GFCI breaker instantly trips.
Are you saying with nothing plugged in turning on a light causes the GFCI to trip? Try with the lights disconnected. It is the GFCI function tripping not the breaker correct?

Are the receptacles fed from the light Jboxes? If it is older 60 wiring it may be so baked that you have legitimate leakage. You might try just using GFCI receptacles.

Of course you may not be able to legally do any wiring since it is apartments.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 10-03-10 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 10-04-10, 06:39 AM
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First of all thank you for your reply.

I was told that a ground wire was needed in order to install a GFCI receptacle...Sounds like I was given incorrect information :P


Are you saying with nothing plugged in turning on a light causes the GFCI to trip? Try with the lights disconnected. It is the GFCI function tripping not the breaker correct?
A light or anything plugged in a receptacle causes the GFCI breaker to trip. I don't have any GFCI receptacles on this circuit, I was trying to use a GFCI breaker.

Are the receptacles fed from the light Jboxes? If it is older 60 wiring it may be so baked that you have legitimate leakage. You might try just using GFCI receptacles.
Some of the receptacles might be fed from light junction boxes. I will have to check it out.

Would you have any other suggestions?

Thank you
 

Last edited by pcboss; 10-04-10 at 06:58 AM. Reason: quote formatting
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Old 10-04-10, 08:11 AM
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Basic trouble shooting is to disconnect one item at a time till the problem area is isolated. With older interconnected systems that can be difficult. That is one reason I suggested using GFCI receptacles and a non-GFCI breaker. Lights don't need to be GFCI and the problem, if it still occurs, would be narrowed down to the wiring at the affected GFCI.
 
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Old 10-04-10, 08:46 AM
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I'm pretty sure there's an electrical problem somewhere.
Thank you for the suggestion, I will try by disconnecting one item at a time to try an isolate the device that's causing a problem.

I understand that lights don't need to be GFCI'd but it was easier to install a GFCI breaker at the panel because the receptacles that I needed to protect were on the same circuit.

I will keep you posted on my troubleshooting

Thank you for your help
 
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Old 10-04-10, 09:39 AM
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I will try by disconnecting one item at a time to try an isolate the device that's causing a problem.
It may also be a section of cable between two points. Often though it is crowding in the boxes causing leakage between too touching wires so I would try opening each box on the circuit, but leaving everything connected, just separating the wires so they are not touching. Even seemingly intact insulation can leak enough current to be detected by the GFCI.
 
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Old 10-04-10, 09:51 AM
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The problem is almost certainly that the neutral wires from two different circuits have been connected together somewhere in the house. It could be intentionally done as in a multiwire circuit or an unintentional mistake. The GFCI can detect this type of fault immediately whereas a regular breaker cannot. If you run into any red wires attached to receptacles chances are good that this is an intentional multiwire circuit.

When I run into these it is usually at a miswired three-way switch. It will require some careful observation of what exactly this circuit powers and an accounting of all the incoming and outgoing wires in the circuits' boxes.

A GFCI device does not need a ground to function correctly.
 
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Old 10-04-10, 06:10 PM
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I was told that a ground wire was needed in order to install a GFCI receptacle...Sounds like I was given incorrect information :P
That sounds a lot like information frequently given out at the Big Box stores.
 
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Old 10-05-10, 11:14 AM
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That sounds a lot like information frequently given out at the Big Box stores.
In fact a person working at Home Depot that gave me this information.

It may also be a section of cable between two points. Often though it is crowding in the boxes causing leakage between too touching wires so I would try opening each box on the circuit, but leaving everything connected, just separating the wires so they are not touching. Even seemingly intact insulation can leak enough current to be detected by the GFCI.
I plan on troubleshooting this weekend. Thank you for the suggestion. I may have crowding in one of my junction boxes.

The problem is almost certainly that the neutral wires from two different circuits have been connected together somewhere in the house. It could be intentionally done as in a multiwire circuit or an unintentional mistake. The GFCI can detect this type of fault immediately whereas a regular breaker cannot. If you run into any red wires attached to receptacles chances are good that this is an intentional multiwire circuit.

When I run into these it is usually at a miswired three-way switch. It will require some careful observation of what exactly this circuit powers and an accounting of all the incoming and outgoing wires in the circuits' boxes.

A GFCI device does not need a ground to function correctly.
I don't recall seeing any red wires on any receptacles but there may be a multiwire circuit installed.
I don't recall seeing any three-way switches in the circuit.

Thank you for all your posts
 
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Old 11-09-10, 12:40 PM
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I want to thank everyone for their suggestions.

After many hours of troubleshooting we found the problem.

One electrical wire's neutral was tied to ground. I'm thinking that the person that installed the new kitchen cupboards drilled a screw in the neutral.

Either way the problem is now fixed as we ran a new electrical cable from junction box the problem outlet.

Once again a big thank you!

Daniel
 
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Old 11-09-10, 12:50 PM
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Glad you got it. Thanks for letting us know.
 
 

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