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just bought a house, had a home inspection done and look at this panel

just bought a house, had a home inspection done and look at this panel

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  #41  
Old 10-08-10, 11:49 AM
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WRT repair or replacement of that panel, the municipal inspectors most places I inspect are going "encourage" replacement of a service equipment panel in that condition. Ditto for much of what's shown in those pictures beyond the service point.
 
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  #42  
Old 10-08-10, 12:03 PM
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Anyway, to get back to my question: the HI observed the condition of the panel, but failed to report it?

I'm wondering how that happened.

One of my procedures is to take a picture of major problem I encounter. I toss a copy of the pictures into a second directory (I use a three monitor setup for report writing) and erase each picture as it's entered into the report. This guarantees that I will not fail to report anything significant I observed.

This safeguard is one of the many reasons I do not attempt to produce an on-site report.
 
  #43  
Old 10-08-10, 12:50 PM
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I have to ask, what's with the coax looped over the electrical drop?

I agree that you should not go to court, but you SHOULD use his license as a bargaining chip to get more out of him. At least half plus the fee. If he doesn't agree, take the $900 and then report him anyway.
 
  #44  
Old 10-08-10, 01:40 PM
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Personal opinion: Houses with no overhang or stupid attempts to save a little on construction that ends up totally exposing the wall of the house to rain. With a decent overhang of 10"-12" you might not even have a water infiltration problem. As it is rain goes straight down the wall instead of being deflected away from the wall by an overhang.
 
  #45  
Old 10-08-10, 04:37 PM
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notice how there are no water streaks in the back of the box anywhere? Yes..there is corrosion and it looks like the mains connections maybe needed some paste....but you have a mix of breakers and the worst corrosion is in the middle breakers...and the bottom of the panel.
I'll bet when someone good actually looks, It can be cleaned up, some breakers replaced, wires redone and you'll be good to go.
I would disagree, the entire service needs to be replaced. Go back and look at the service panel again near the beginning of this thread. You'll see that this is a Bryant panel. Look again at the 150 amp Bryant main breaker, it needs to be replaced. Bryant has been gone for years and even when they were in operation, they only made aluminum bus panels as far as I know and have ever seen. I can only imagine the condition of the aluminum bus after being subjected to all the water. The cost of replacement breakers, including the main breaker IF it's still available, would exceed the cost of a simple panel change.
 
  #46  
Old 10-08-10, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by twty22 View Post
here is my pictures of the service outside the house i brought









below is the neighbors service, he said after they redo it it should like that with all pvc pipe
There's your leak. Look at how the SEU cable drops from the weatherhead into the open end of an old rusty EMT conduit. That is where the majority of water comes from and it drains down through the meter socket and on down into the service panel. The old EMT doesn't even appear to fit the compression connector in the hub on top of the socket. It appears to maybe be 2", but there is something wrong because it doesn't enter the compression connector and appears to have some sort of sealant applied to it. Another source of water infiltration. Everything outside MUST be replaced. It is pretty obvious that there was no inspection when this service was installed.
 
  #47  
Old 10-08-10, 05:02 PM
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Well..I did say until a Pro corrected me.....

Not up on panels or whats bad and good....just a basic observation.

Now that all the info is out there...I'd go for a complete re-do if it were my house.
 
  #48  
Old 10-08-10, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CasualJoe View Post
There's your leak. Look at how the SEU cable drops from the weatherhead into the open end of an old rusty EMT conduit.
That's the craziest weatherhead/mast setup I've ever seen. Who would have allowed such a thing?

Another thing - unless I knew the sider, I would not trust how the water drains at the fascia at the vinyl siding j-channel along the roof rake. Water likely runs down the fascia and behind the j-channel and behind all the vinyl siding. Hopefully the sider has tape fanboard or the like under that vinyl.
 
  #49  
Old 10-08-10, 09:28 PM
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i a having the whole service replaced and i am going to upgrade to 200 amp service since it has to be changed anyway.
 
  #50  
Old 10-09-10, 05:31 AM
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New pix are great. This is a disaster waiting to happen. Surely it should have been in the report, but such a goofy entrance setup, on the outside, ANYONE could see problems. Openings at the rake board where the service is attached invites water as well as the holes where the clamps were placed. The cable offset at the meter base hub will fill the base with water.
Glad you decided to replace the entire thing. That is the only way to go to be safe.
 
  #51  
Old 10-09-10, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by twty22 View Post
i a having the whole service replaced and i am going to upgrade to 200 amp service since it has to be changed anyway.
Good idea. If it's practical, you might also consider switching from overhead to underground feed as well. I use a fiberglass ladder but it's still nice to not have to worry about hitting wires anymore.
 
  #52  
Old 10-09-10, 08:27 AM
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Aster seeing your photos I agree that replacing the entire service is probably a good idea.
 
  #53  
Old 10-09-10, 09:19 AM
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IMO if you are going to replace/upgrade the entire service, and go overhead, I would use IMC rather then PVC for the mast. It will last forever. Use PVC between the meter and the main panel.
 

Last edited by Tolyn Ironhand; 10-09-10 at 12:53 PM.
  #54  
Old 10-09-10, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand View Post
IMO if you are going to replace/upgrade the entire service, and go overhead, I would use IMC rather then PVC for the mast. It will last forever. Use PVC between the meter and the main panel.
I agree. I don't like PVC risers on an overhead service. They are perfectly acceptable by NEC, but I don't like them. I also agree because I don't like service cables, SEU or SER, and much prefer conduit and wire for my own home.

I also agree with stepping up to a 200 amp service. It probably won't cost any more than a 150 amp service.
 

Last edited by Tolyn Ironhand; 10-09-10 at 12:53 PM. Reason: fixed Tolyn's typo
  #55  
Old 10-09-10, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand View Post
IMO if you are going to replace/upgrade the entire service, and go overhead, I would use IMC rather then PVC for the mast. It will last forever. Use PVC between the meter and the main panel.
i will ask the electrican since he says he also rather use PVC. i will ask him about IMC.. what is IMC. im a Noob at this

He is doing the whole service 200 amp upgrade for 1700.00
 
  #56  
Old 10-09-10, 04:23 PM
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IMC is intermediate metal conduit. It is threaded like rigid metal conduit but not quite as heavy as RMC. It is kind of in between Rigid and EMT. It is also likely the stuff that is in the picture you posted with the mast going through the roof. BTW EMT is what you have now that is all rusty.
 

Last edited by Tolyn Ironhand; 10-09-10 at 05:34 PM.
  #57  
Old 10-09-10, 04:43 PM
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Don't forget, there is a lot of stress being placed on the weatherhead area, and over time PVC may not stand up to it like either rigid or IMC would. Locally our guy won't allow PVC for a mast for that reason.
 
  #58  
Old 10-09-10, 04:54 PM
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$1700 for a whole service upgrade? That's cheap................
 
  #59  
Old 10-09-10, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by chandler View Post
Don't forget, there is a lot of stress being placed on the weatherhead area, and over time PVC may not stand up to it like either rigid or IMC would. Locally our guy won't allow PVC for a mast for that reason.
A mast extends through the roof like the OP posted that his neighbor has, but the OP will have a riser, not a mast (if I understood correctly). A riser does not support the weight of the service drop, but a mast does. A riser extends up the side of the house and typically stops at or below the roof line. Generally the service drop is supported by a threaded insulator attached to the framing when a riser is used, but that also depends on the height of the drip loop. In my area, the power companies want no less than 10 feet to the drip loop. Otherwise, the riser must become a mast and extend high enough to get the drip loop/driveway clearance required. The power companies here allow only rigid metal heavywall conduit for a mast to support the service drop, no IMC, PVC or EMT allowed.

BTW, the OP's neighbor has a mast extending through the roof, but it wouldn't be accepted here unless it were upsized to 2 1/2" RMC because of the overall height above the roof. In some cases, a tie-back is also required.
 
  #60  
Old 10-09-10, 05:38 PM
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Around here 2" IMC is acceptable unsupported as long at it is not over 3' above the roof (or there about. I have never seen an inspector climb up a ladder and measure ). If it is over then you need to install guy wires.
 
  #61  
Old 10-09-10, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by HotinOKC View Post
$1700 for a whole service upgrade? That's cheap................
i even got a price for 1500.00-1600.00.

they have no work i guess and want the jobs...
 
  #62  
Old 10-09-10, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand View Post
Around here 2" IMC is acceptable unsupported as long at it is not over 3' above the roof (or there about. I have never seen an inspector climb up a ladder and measure ). If it is over then you need to install guy wires.
I am not sure I have ever seen a NEC requirement stating the type of conduit for a mast, but surely there is something addressing it. Here it is a power company requirement. I have never heard of an inspector questioning the type of conduit on a mast before, but I have seen cases where they required the guy wire or tie-back.
 
  #63  
Old 10-09-10, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by twty22 View Post
i even got a price for 1500.00-1600.00.

they have no work i guess and want the jobs...
I think somewhere between $1500 and $1700 is a fair price for your service replacement assuming it will be all conduit and not SEU cables.
 
  #64  
Old 10-09-10, 06:31 PM
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Yeah, CJ, I understand the differences in stress on the mast versus the riser. Depending on how it is straightened out and drip looped, he may have a problem with horizontal clearance from the window, not sure, making it possible it will need to be extended for clearance, in which stance, he would need IMC at least. Just an observation. Just glad he's getting it done.
 
  #65  
Old 10-09-10, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CasualJoe View Post
I am not sure I have ever seen a NEC requirement stating the type of conduit for a mast, but surely there is something addressing it. Here it is a power company requirement. I have never heard of an inspector questioning the type of conduit on a mast before, but I have seen cases where they required the guy wire or tie-back.
The only NEC requirement is: 230.28 (2005) Where a mast is used for the support of final spans of feeders or branch circuits, it shall be of adequate strength or be supported by braces or guys to withstand safely the strain imposed by the overhead drop. (there is more but you get the drift )This can also be found in 225.17 (2005)

This sounds like an AHJ or power company call as we are finding out in our discussion.
 
  #66  
Old 10-27-10, 09:37 PM
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UPDATE

service was replaced . upgraded to 200 AMP service. i will post a set of pics tomorrow or by friday.

Question when they did the outside service they put a new hook there but they did not move the line on the new hook they put there. are they supposed to. he said that the power company will do that?
 
  #67  
Old 10-27-10, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by twty22 View Post
UPDATE

service was replaced . upgraded to 200 AMP service. i will post a set of pics tomorrow or by friday.

Question when they did the outside service they put a new hook there but they did not move the line on the new hook they put there. are they supposed to. he said that the power company will do that?

I am glad you give us a update with the situation and for the service drop point hook if someone install the new drop hook attachement genrally POCO will deal with it due they will check the overhead drop and few case they just replace it without bother checking it thru.

Merci,
Marc
 
  #68  
Old 10-28-10, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by twty22 View Post
service was replaced . upgraded to 200 AMP service. i will post a set of pics tomorrow or by friday.
Thanks for the update, glad it all worked out.

Question when they did the outside service they put a new hook there but they did not move the line on the new hook they put there. are they supposed to. he said that the power company will do that?
In my area we do a temp hookup, then the inspector comes out and issues the approval to officially connect and he puts a green sticker on the meter box. The power company does the aerial work and makes permanent splices a couple days after the approval is posted.
 
  #69  
Old 10-28-10, 09:48 AM
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the inspector just came and its good to go. and he said the the power company will hook up the service to the new hook. i called the power company and let them know to come by since the line to our house is so tight from the pole leaning so they are sending someone out...
 
  #70  
Old 10-28-10, 06:28 PM
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In my area we do a temp hookup, then the inspector comes out and issues the approval to officially connect and he puts a green sticker on the meter box. The power company does the aerial work and makes permanent splices a couple days after the approval is posted.
It's the same way here. If the contractor goes ahead and moves the service drop, the local AHJ will issue a $500 fine to the contractor. This is something relatively new. Used to be contractors did this all the time.
 
  #71  
Old 10-28-10, 09:44 PM
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here are the pictures.. what a difference






look at that power wire.. looks like a tight rope




 
  #72  
Old 10-29-10, 04:18 AM
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Your service drop is way to tight, and you’re wise to have POCO check it out.

While not perfectly clear from the single picture showing the pole, a few thoughts.

The slack drops going to your neighbor’s homes indicates that something is going on with that pole since it was originally installed. When first referencing a leaning pole before a pic was provided, possible reasons could be a poorly installed pole by not being set straight (there is more going on than that as that would not likely explain why your drop is like a banjo string while your neighbors are somewhat slack), pole set in soft or wet soil (probably not the case given an older urban neighborhood), or rotten or rotting base. However, it looks like the pole is bowed more than leaning. You’ll notice that the electrical primary (wire at very top of pole) dead ends at that pole while the secondary wires continue on. Sometimes in a situation like this, a span to span guy between poles is needed if the dead end primary is heavily tensioned but the limited view makes it hard to tell if that’s the cause of the problem. The heavy phone/cable trunk lines on this pole line may also be a factor if the pole is bowed.

While a shorter-term fix can be accomplished by slackening your drop, it may not be a permanent solution if stresses on this pole are not corrected, and it continues to bow over time. When poles are under significant stress, they are more susceptible to being snapped although less likely in this case as the pole line appears to be running in the rear of properties. Poco will hopefully send out someone who can see a broader view of what is going on, and make needed changes.
 
  #73  
Old 10-29-10, 05:03 AM
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Has this been inspected yet? Theres a few things im concerned with. The reason he put in a second hook is because the weather head is supposed to be above the service attachment point. The electrician is probably hoping that the POCO will lower the drop to the other hook to minimize the strain on your drop, but if they dont, then your service was installed incorrectly. Second, I dont see that same green ground wire thats coming from the ground rod going into the house. Where does that green wire go. The #6 from the panel to the ground rods needs to be one complete piece from panel to the last ground rod, are there 2 ground rods, and is your water pipe bonded as well with #4 wire? That fitting going into your house, ive never seen that before, so i dont know what to say about it, but im concerned about the SEU cable that is being run inside the conduit from the meter pan. You cant do that. That is considered a raceway inside of a raceway. Either you run conduit all the way to the panel box, or your run SEU cable instead of conduit.
 
  #74  
Old 10-29-10, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ElectricJoeNJ View Post
Has this been inspected yet? Theres a few things im concerned with. The reason he put in a second hook is because the weather head is supposed to be above the service attachment point. The electrician is probably hoping that the POCO will lower the drop to the other hook to minimize the strain on your drop, but if they dont, then your service was installed incorrectly. Second, I dont see that same green ground wire thats coming from the ground rod going into the house. Where does that green wire go. The #6 from the panel to the ground rods needs to be one complete piece from panel to the last ground rod, are there 2 ground rods, and is your water pipe bonded as well with #4 wire? That fitting going into your house, ive never seen that before, so i dont know what to say about it, but im concerned about the SEU cable that is being run inside the conduit from the meter pan. You cant do that. That is considered a raceway inside of a raceway. Either you run conduit all the way to the panel box, or your run SEU cable instead of conduit.
yes it was inspected yesterday and got the green light. the green ground is inside the house also and on teh water main. the inspector ask me where the water main was and seen it was there.

you can see teh green ground on the pic i took of the top of the box. verizon connected there ground to it with a clamp. its just to teh left of the larger power wire.

as far as the seu cable i have no idea. inspector gave the green light on it....
 
  #75  
Old 10-29-10, 05:58 AM
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The SEU inside the conduit is fine. The PVC is a sleeve, not a raceway. Cables are commonly sleeved for physical protection. I too have never seen that fitting at the bottom of the PVC.

The top of the rod should be flush or below grade. The wire from the panel only needs to be continuous to the first rod. You can jumper from the first to the second rod. The wires should have be secured to closely follow the surface of the building.
 
  #76  
Old 10-29-10, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pcboss View Post
The SEU inside the conduit is fine. The PVC is a sleeve, not a raceway. Cables are commonly sleeved for physical protection. I too have never seen that fitting at the bottom of the PVC.

The top of the rod should be flush or below grade. The wire from the panel only needs to be continuous to the first rod. You can jumper from the first to the second rod. The wires should have be secured to closely follow the surface of the building.
the inspector told me i can now hammer the ground outside down into teh ground since they left it like that so he can see it.
 
  #77  
Old 10-29-10, 09:54 AM
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well as long as you got the green light, then thats it then. Does look much better than the original service.
 
  #78  
Old 10-29-10, 01:51 PM
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The GEC ends at the first rod, subsequent connections to additional rods are considered bonding jumpers in the NEC:



That said, for the benefit of future readers, some AHJs require that the connection be continuous, so this in one of those "determine local code requirements" questions.
 
  #79  
Old 10-29-10, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ElectricJoeNJ View Post
well as long as you got the green light, then thats it then. Does look much better than the original service.
there are pictures of the original service in this thread also. you should compare and see it
 
  #80  
Old 10-29-10, 11:08 PM
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ElectricJoeNJ is not asking you if it looks better, he is agreeing that it looks better
 
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