clearance behind dishwasher in peninsula for outlet?

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  #1  
Old 10-23-10, 06:09 PM
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clearance behind dishwasher in peninsula for outlet?

How much space do you need at the back of a dishwasher?

I am in the middle of a kitchen renovation. I need an outlet near the end of my peninsula to meet code. It is undesirable to put the outlet on the very end of the peninsula and the inspector said it is OK to put it on the side near the end. The side of the peninsula is an overhang where we will place bar stools for seating.

My problem is, I have a dishwasher at the very end of the peninsula and I don't want to be in a position where I put in an outlet box and later when I go to put the dishwasher in, it bumps the outlet box and won't go in all the way. The space in the peninsula where the dishwasher will go is exactly 24 inches by 24 inches. The back wall of the peninsula where I am installing the outlet is 13/16 of an inch thick.

One option I have considered is a 2-1/4w x 4h x 1-5/8d inch "handy box" (11.5 cu stamped on it) I can mount this in the wall and it will stick out into the dishwasher area by 3/4 of an inch. By my calculations, I only need 11.25 cu inches in the box for 12 guage wire so I'll meet code here. (The circuit is GFI protected upstream so I don't need to put a GFI inside this box.) The box has 1/2" knockouts.

The question then becomes can I run NM along the back wall of this cabinet behind the dishwasher and through a cable clamp into the box OR do I need to run individual conductors in conduit into the basement and then transition to NM? It seems to me that since the NM for the dishwasher doesn't have to be protected by conduit in my area that it would be OK to feed the NM for the outlet through the same hole in the floor as the dishwasher power and simply staple it to the rear of the cabinet on its way to the box.

The other alternative is a 15/16" thick wiremold surface mount box. (V5748S) Because this box is thicker than the wall and only mounts on the back side, I'd need to attach it to a piece of luan and then attach that to the back wall from the inside. (Mounting the box so it is mostly contained within the thickness of the wall.) This option would only stick out into the dishwasher area about 1/2 inch... but I still haven't figured out how to route the wire out the side of the box. I could use a 1/2" knockout on the back, but then it would be the exact same thickness as the handy box with a whole lot more effort.

Other ideas?
 
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  #2  
Old 10-23-10, 06:35 PM
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Here are some pictures of the space:



 
  #3  
Old 10-23-10, 07:24 PM
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I'd want to see the dishwasher but based on the ones I have seen I'd put it in the back center of the DW opening about 6"-8" from the floor. I'd run the cable from below. I'd put a surface mounted receptacle inside the sink cabinet for the DW and GD.
 
  #4  
Old 10-23-10, 09:04 PM
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Majorty of the dishwasher do have a gap near the top end of the unit and that one of few locations I will install it.

24X24 is pretty tight fit for dishwasher normally I use 26X26 for this reason { There are other size as well } and use the trim to close it up it look pretty sharp when got it done.

So with your island end you should not have a issue there with convental box { belive me I have done that few time before we install the dishwasher and many time I get cut sheet from the manufacter and we almost dail in pretty good.

If you going to hardwired the dishwasher make sure you put a switch below the sink or at the wall one of the two meet the code otherwise cord/ plug attachment do allow it for this purpose.

And make sure this on it own circuit and yeah you can share with garabge dispoal unit if both are not over 20 amp total otherwise run the dishwashwer on it own circuit if the installment instruction called for that.

Merci.
Marc
 
  #5  
Old 10-23-10, 09:22 PM
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The dishwasher I have now measures 23" from the deepest point on the back (as best I can tell) to the front of the bracket that screws to the side cabinets. If I go with the handybox, that means I'll have 1/4" of free space if I'm lucky. Personally, I think this is too close for my comfort.

Are there any other kinds of 11.5 cu in or greater shallow boxes that can be essentially buried inside a plywood wall? I'm concerned about the surface mount products because I don't know if my inspector will pass these products being used in a way in which they weren't intended. (They're not surface mounted, I'm trying to bury them inside a wall where they won't be seen.)

There is certainly more room for the outlet box near the floor. I cannot mount the outlet there because an appliance on the counter top with a 2 foot cord will not be able to reach the outlet if it is installed there. The outlet has to be as close as possible to the counter top.

I also still wonder exactly what code says about unprotected NM cable inside cabinets. When exactly can NM cable be exposed without protection? Are there special provisions for dishwasher circuits and disposer circuits that permit exposed NM cable in the cabinets... but not for other wiring such as appliance outlets?

For the record, the dishwasher circuit is a dedicated 20A circuit and is controlled by a wall switch. The disposer circuit is a dedicated 15A circuit and it terminates at an outlet under the sink. The disposer plugs into a remote control device which is then plugged into the outlet. The remote control device is activated by an air-controlled button that is mounted next to the faucet in the counter top.
 
  #6  
Old 10-23-10, 09:30 PM
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I understand what you are saying about the situation and I have see it before and the best place is near the top of the cabent panel that where you useally find a gap there so I am aware the dishwasher have curved corner so typically you should have about 1.5 to 3 inch gap ditto with top side as well.

What brand name dishwasher you are plan to install in ?? maybe I can able recall it due I have hook up quite few of them so I can able assist you on this one.

Also how much overhang you will have on the countertop if under 12 inches you can mount the receptale almost anywhere but once you get over 12 inch it automatique not allowed.

Merci.
Marc
 
  #7  
Old 10-23-10, 09:41 PM
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The dishwasher is a Maytag QuietSeries 200. Yes, there will be about 1.5 inches between the top of the dishwasher and the bottom of the counter top. Yes, the edges are rounded... but not much. This is the squarest dishwasher I've ever seen. The counter top overhang for seating is 11 inches.

The dishwasher I have may fit in this space with the handi-box. But the dishwasher is not new. I want to be sure that however I wire this outlet, any diswasher I purchase in the future designed to fit in a "standard" 24 x 24 space will fit. That's why I really want the outlet box to be as thin as possible. We don't know how appliance manufacturers will make dishwashers in 5 years from now when I will likely have to replace this unit.

If I have to do all kinds of funky cuts and routing into the back of this cabinet, it will sure be much easier to do that NOW as opposed to after the stone counter top goes on next week.
 
  #8  
Old 10-23-10, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jbmdharris View Post
The dishwasher is a Maytag QuietSeries 200. Yes, there will be about 1.5 inches between the top of the dishwasher and the bottom of the counter top. Yes, the edges are rounded... but not much. This is the squarest dishwasher I've ever seen. The counter top overhang for seating is 11 inches.
Ok I have see this unit before that one of few super sharp corner dishwashers I have ran into in USA side.

OK I will give you a soluation here you will have to install the shallow old work box in horzontal postion this work the best due less change anything get damaged or binded up when you slide the dishwasher in.

Ah ok 11 inches it can almost put anywhere on the countertop but keep to the end much as possible that is one of few safe spots but yes you can add couple more under the countertop if you want to { I am pretty sure the inspector will approve this due it under 12 inches unless it is addmentended with local codes which they are more restrictive so IIRC some will say 8 inch overhang any thing over they will not allow it.

The dishwasher I have may fit in this space with the handi-box. But the dishwasher is not new. I want to be sure that however I wire this outlet, any diswasher I purchase in the future designed to fit in a "standard" 24 x 24 space will fit. That's why I really want the outlet box to be as thin as possible. We don't know how appliance manufacturers will make dishwashers in 5 years from now when I will likely have to replace this unit.

If I have to do all kinds of funky cuts and routing into the back of this cabinet, it will sure be much easier to do that NOW as opposed to after the stone counter top goes on next week.
That is the best time to do it before the stone countertop go in {It is the safest way to do this instead try to do it later and can damage the stone countertop which it will be more cost to fix it }

That why I tell the homeowners make sure you get all the rough in done before final part like counter top etc etc so don't have tdo something major goof fix up. that why I like to double check everything make sure ya don't miss it I know it will take couple extra minutes but it worth it.

Merci.
Marc
 
  #9  
Old 10-24-10, 05:21 PM
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I would suggest hard wiring this up through the bottom of the dishwasher. All dishwashers have a panel that allows you to access the bottom of the dishwasher from the front. That is where you have to hook up your piping anyway.

If you hardwire it and leave enough wire then you can pull it out even without unhooking it. This is the ONLY way i have ever installed all of my 4 dishwashers.
 
  #10  
Old 10-24-10, 05:30 PM
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Why not mount the receptacle in the next cabinet over and drill a 1 1/2" hole thru the cabinet side for the cord?

Unless called for in the instructions, no GFI protection for the DW is required.
 
  #11  
Old 10-24-10, 06:14 PM
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Sorry, for the confusion. I'm pulling *two* circuits into this area behind the dishwasher. One is to power the dishwasher itself which isn't any problem at all.

The problem is placement of the outlet box for the *20A Small Appliance* circuit that I must install at the end of the peninsula to plug in mixers, crock pots, food processors, etc. that will be sitting on top of the counter.

I am having trouble finding a shallow enough box to leave sufficient clearance for the shell of the dishwasher in a 24 x 24 opening. I have found one metal box that will only stick out 3/4 of an inch into the area where the dishwasher is located. My calculation for the dishwasher I have is that will leave 1/4 inch of clearance between the back of the outlet box and the back of the dishwasher. That will work for me now, but what about in the future when I buy a new one? Do dishwashers on the market assume that they can take up the full 24 inches deep?

My kitchen designer simply said "just install an outlet near the end of the peninsula". My inspector at the rough-in inspection simply said, "just install an outlet near the end of the peninsula". What I'm finding now that I'm actually trying to install an outlet box, is there isn't much clearance here for installing an outlet box. So I'm worried that even 3/4 of an inch is too much extension into the dishwasher area and that maybe I should work harder to cut this down by using a wiremold type box (assuming I can figure out how to get the wire out of it in a way that will meet code. I don't want to install an outlet that I'm going to need to replace in 5 years because the outlet box sticks too far into the dishwasher area.
 
  #12  
Old 10-24-10, 06:31 PM
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And to further clarify, the goal is to install a standard outlet in a box that is as close to 13/16 of an inch deep as possible to maximize the depth of the cabinet where the dishwasher goes. I intend to bury as much of this outlet box within the 13/16 inch wall as possible. My wife won't find a surface-mounted wiremold box on the outside of the peninsula acceptable.

I have seen plastic wiremold boxes that are 15/16 inch. I would like to know if I can mount this 15/16 inch box to the thinest piece of material that will support use. (proabably 3/8" luan). Then cut a rectangle in the back of the cabinet that is the same size as the wiremold box. Then drill a hole through the luan and through the back of the plastic wiremold box to run NM into the box. Then screw the luan to the back wall of the cabinet using shims to make the face of the wiremold box flush with the exterior wall of the cabinet. Then staple my NM to the back wall of the cabinet running it through the hole in the luan into the outlet box. Then install the outlet followed by an oversized plate such that you have no idea that a wiremold box is being used instead of some other kind of outlet box. If cut out a channel in the luan for the NM, then the thickness of the NM won't be in the way and I will have maximized the amount of space behind the dishwasher. The question is this: Assuming such an installation would actually meet code, is it worth all that work for the extra 1/4 of an inch of clearance it would give me?
 
  #13  
Old 10-25-10, 07:33 AM
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The Code requirement is for a receptacle to serve the peninsula. It does not have to be on the end of the peninsula. You could mount it facing out the back of the cabinet next to the DW, unless the countertop overhangs more than 6".
 
  #14  
Old 10-25-10, 08:30 AM
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The counter top overhang on the back of the peninsula is 11 inches for a bar area with bar stools. The plan I worked out with the electrical inspector is to install the outlet as close to the end as possible on the back of the peninsula under the bar overhang. There is a decorative door panel that will be installed on the end of the peninsula. This is why we do not want the outlet on the end... plus, there is more clearance at the back of the dishwasher than there is on the side. It would be almost impossible to install an outlet on the end of the peninsula without the dishwasher bumping into the outlet box.

I also worked out with the electrical inspector to use a 15/16 inch wiremold outlet box mostly buried inside the back wall. So, from the exterior, it looks just like a standard outlet turned on its side about an inch below the counter top and an inch from the end of the peninsula. On the inside of the wall, I'll use luan as a spacer to fill out the depth of the wiremold box and then will use a metal truss plate to cover the entire box with plenty of overlap. The wiremold box will be bolted to the truss plate. Then multiple screws will attach the entire thing through the truss plate, through the luan, and into the back wall. The luan and truss plate will not cover one of the two short sides of the wiremold outlet box. The punchout for the box will be removed and the NM will enter the box at this location so it can be stapled within a few inches of where it enters the plastic box.

As an added measure, I'm considering grounding the truss plate with a grounding clip just in case.
 

Last edited by jbmdharris; 10-25-10 at 09:17 AM.
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